DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: AB on July 22, 2007, 12:38:36 PM
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The section on march moves seems to be particulary badly written. The group I play with believe that it's possible to march into frontal contact against any troop type which can't shoot, assuming you have enough pips. Surely that's a misinterpretation. Or is it me that's wrong?
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Ok, don't have the rules with me, just the February electronic version, which says:
"A March move must start further than 400p from all known enemy not light troops or beyond a friendly PF or TF. It ends early without PIP penalty 40p short of visible enemy other than Psiloi or at its closest approach to enemy who will shoot at it that bound."
This is clear, you cannot move into contact with visible enemy using a march move unless they are Psiloi. Hope this helps.
D.
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No it's different from that now:
A march move must start further than 400p from all known enemy not (a) Light Horse or Psiloi, or (b) beyond a friendly PF or TF, or (c) that would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward.
So whether they can shoot or not is irrelevant.
You can contact anyone that you can reach.....except of course the only way you can actually march 400p or further is along a road - so effectively you can only march into contact if you do so along a road and can reach, or you can hit enemy in the flank or rear and there are no other enemy within 400p when you start the march move.
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"except of course the only way you can actually march 400p or further is along a road - so effectively you can only march into contact if you do so along a road and can reach"
(c) that would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward.
You don't need to actually need to have a movement rate of 400 paces to continue marching.
David Thompson
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Could someone explain what (C) means in plain English with an example. ???
A march move must start further than 400p from all known enemy not (a) Light Horse or Psiloi, or (b) beyond a friendly PF or TF, or (c) that would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward.
Thanks
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It doesn't mean anything, at least not in English :)
There is a clarification about in on the http://www.dbmm.org.uk website that tries to explain it better but it is still proving to be open to many interpretations.
IMHO the intention is that you can march up to (and contact) smaller groups that are directly in front of your group provided there is no-one else around.
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"except of course the only way you can actually march 400p or further is along a road - so effectively you can only march into contact if you do so along a road and can reach"
(c) that would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward.
You don't need to actually need to have a movement rate of 400 paces to continue marching.
my example was not JUST for hitting someone in the flank or rear - you can march along a road and hit them on the front edge too.
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IMHO the intention is that you can march up to (and contact) smaller groups that are directly in front of your group provided there is no-one else around.
Where the hell are smaller groups mentioned ???!!! :-)
Bryan
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Thanks for the answers but the question covered a much simpler point. I'll try my question again with an example, just to make it clearer:
Let's say a group of cavalry are facing a group of blade 450 paces away. Both groups are facing each other. The cavalry have a move distance of 240 paces so can they march into front contact with the blade at a cost of 3 APs (2 march moves plus 1 to march into contact)?
My friends say yes because the march sequence is initiated beyond 400 paces. I think this is a misinterpretation, it doesn't make any sense that the cavalry can move to contact when 450 paces away but not if the distance was 350 paces. They're taking the phrase "A march move must start further than 400p from..." as meaning a march sequence rather than any individual move within that march sequence. I just want to know if any other people are playing it this way.
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From my perspective
The cavalry can make a march move of 240 paces which leaves them 210 paces from the blades and thats it for them - they cannot make another march move as there are (appropriate) enemy within 400 paces.
If the blades were however LH or Psiloi then the Cav could make another march move - which would be to contact which would have cost a total of 3 Pips 1 for the first move and 2 for the second as to march to contact is an extra PIP (c) last bullet
Its march moves - each of which during a side's bound must comply with the - A March move must start further than 400p ...blah blah
Regards
David Mather
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Dave is correct...with the proviso that you have to check ALL troops that are within 400p at the time you want to start a march move - there may be troops athe than the LH/Ps that prevent you marching.
Where the march "sequence" starts is irrelevant - each march MOVE measures....as noted in the rules "A March move must start further than 400p...."
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I read the recommended link on point C about march moving.
"A March move must start further than 400p from all known enemy unless all such
(a) are Light Horse or Psiloi, or
(b) are beyond a friendly PF or TF, or
(c) would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward"
Phil's response to this was:
It isn't an errata, because the rules are correct. You do offer a form of words that could be adopted in a future version, and I have noted it.
I am sorry but I still confused on what 'point C' means. ???
Is there anywhere I can get a detailed explanation of what this means or better yet a diagram.
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One last try - string it together with the opening statement, and remove a) and b) and you get:
" March move must start further than 400p from all known enemy unless all such would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward"
so you can start a move closer to 400p from enemy, if all such enemy would be contacted by a hypothetical group move 400p straight ahead, and they would be contacted on a flank or rear - essentially they are facing away from you, and you are facing directly towards them.
note that you don't actually have to contact the enemy - this is jsut a condition for being allowed to start the march move - you can use the subsequent move to go in any legal direction you like.
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As I understand Point C, you can march despite having enemy within 400p if their side or rear edges are facing you and within a rectangle that stretches forward 400 paces from your group.
Which is what I meant by the group being smaller. I think that if part of the group the you want to march up to lies outside this rectangle projecting forwards from the side edges of your group, the elements that are outside stop you marching as they would not be contacted by the hypothetical march straight forward.
I'll try and do some diagrams.
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I agree.. it is the 'all such' in the line that gets this. I really wish it had been written differently. Something like, 'you can start a march within 400p (note positive voice) if: (conditions here) All enemy elements or groups within 400p would be contacted in the rear or flank if you moved straight forward. etc...
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Thanks for the explanation. I think my problem with initially understanding this rule is that I found it illogic. I kept reading it and coming to the same explanation as that provided here but thought my interpretation must be wrong. Here are a couple of scenarios that come to mind:
Scenario 1: The enemy line is all within range, facing the other way BUT at a slight angle to the marchers. In this case ?a hypothetical group move 400p straight ahead? wouldn?t contact all enemy elements and consequently wouldn?t be allowed.
Scenario 2: Enemy line is facing directly away and consists of 3 elements, the marcher has only 2 elements, accordingly as not all enemy elements are contacted the march isn?t allowed.
My point is what is this march rule trying to simulate?
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Scenario 1 - I think its still OK as they would be hit by the hypothetical move - but I'm on shaky ground here.
Scenario 2 - I think is not OK as there are elements that aren't being contacted.
I think the intention is to allow you to march up to insignificant bodies of troops that aren't a risk to you i.e. bodies that aren't facing you and have a smaller frontage than you (which might have been a better way to say it).
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1 is certainly OK IMO - contact can include teh optional extra movement to allow lining up, so the enemy being at an angle makes no difference.
2 is a new one to me in this thread. IMO you might get around it by moving a hypothetical group - ie imagine your group is large enough to contact all such elements.....
I disagree that teh idea is to only allow contact with small groups - IMO it is a device to stop people trying to run away while still preventing enemy from doing multiple march moves.
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Thanks to all for answering my original question. Hopefully it will settle a difference of opinion.
As regards point C. I really don't understand why the need to be able to contact with a hypothetical straight ahead move was even included. It's too complicated and doesn't seem make any sense that marching is only allowed if facing directly towards the enemy flank/rear. Anybody know the rational behind it?
Just a thought: what if point C was replaced with a simpler exception of being entirely behind the front edge of all other known enemy within 400p? Presumably there's a very good reason why this wouldn't work but maybe somebody could explain it.
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A march move must start further than 400p from all known enemy not (a) Light Horse or Psiloi, or (b) beyond a friendly PF or TF, or (c) that would be contacted on a flank or rear edge or rear corner by a hypothetical group move 400p straight forward.
Scenario 1: The enemy line is all within range, facing the other way BUT at a slight angle to the marchers. In this case ?a hypothetical group move 400p straight ahead? wouldn?t contact all enemy elements and consequently wouldn?t be allowed.
1 is certainly OK IMO - contact can include teh optional extra movement to allow lining up, so the enemy being at an angle makes no difference.
Back to my scenario 1 shown above where the enemy line is at a slight angle. The actual rules state the move must be a hypothetical group move ?straight forward?, doesn?t say anything about lining up. One thing I have learnt the hard way is not to read in anything that is not explicitly stated.
I agree with AB about this particular rule being confusing. However not sure if his alternative wouldn?t rise similar issues.
what if point C was replaced with a simpler exception of being entirely behind the front edge of all other known enemy within 400p?
For example I could see a scenario where a light horse unit sneaks to the enemy rear table edge then expends a number of PIPs to race alone the edge within a couple of centimetres of the rear of a number of enemy units to hit the baggage camp.
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contact doesn't have to be full edge to edge - that's lining up.
You can contact with just a corner or half and edge or some other less than optimal arrangement to fulfil the need to contact - and then use the optional movement to line up - 2 different things.
I agree that the wording isn't great, but it is undestandable with some thought.
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As far as I can see a further (extensive) series of diagrams to elucidate various points would be a massive aid.
I am still confused about the PIP cost of an irregular group wheeling, as well as this discussion..
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Irregular group wheeling:
1 for the move
+1 for the wheel (difficult evolution)
+1 if it moves less than maximum distance (difficult evolution)
+1 if "clumsy" irregular, ie not Cv(O), light troops etc
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So the minimum cost is 2 PIPs for a group of Cv(O) or lights whose outside corner moves full move.
If they are other troops and they want to move short, it would be 4 PIPs.
Once you start mixing foot and mounted, including Hordes or wheeling on your 3rd march move you can easily get it up to 6 or 7 PIPs :(
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I think someone once calculated hte maximum possible cost for a single element move was 8 or 9 PIPs - a disheartened Hd that moved closer to enemy, short distance, lacking general, orders changed last bound, marched having already made 2 march moves...
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Only Brilliant generals need apply :)
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Irregular group wheeling:
1 for the move
+1 for the wheel (difficult evolution)
+1 if it moves less than maximum distance (difficult evolution)
+1 if "clumsy" irregular, ie not Cv(O), light troops etc
Aha - simple really ;D :o
Before I get really stuck into DBMM I will wait for the diagrams :)
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Irr AX (any grade) can wheel for only 1 pip right?
there is no +1 for wheeling with light troops right. even though they are IRR???
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All groups except a single element wide column pay 1 extra PIP to wheel.
Irregular lights don't pay a further PIP on top of that for being irregular.
So a group of Irr Ax(I) will pay two PIPs to wheel, same as a group of Reg Bd(O).
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ooops ;) we were doing that wrong.
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There is a clarification about in on the http://www.dbmm.org.uk website that tries to explain it better but it is still proving to be open to many interpretations.
IMHO the intention is that you can march up to (and contact) smaller groups that are directly in front of your group provided there is no-one else around.
I've read the clarification, but what happens to individual elements making marches? Please, look at the diagram enclosed. My element is the grey one. Let's consider three scenarios:
1) The initial position is as drawn. I can move my last march into contact to the white element's rear. Is it legal?
2) Now my element is 3 cm rightwards, so that the rear's element is in my straight ahead path.
3) Now the same but 2 cm leftwards, so the the right flank of the other enemy element is contacted.
Theoretically, a single element correctly "lined up" can march into contact against any enemy flank or rear. Correct?
Thank you.
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Having discussed this recently with Phil (at Slimbridge) I do not believe the grey element can march into the rear as there are 2 elements that it will not contact within 400 paces
In essence you must contact all elements within 400p with the march move (other than LH or Ps) - this includes front ranks of 2 deep or more formations
You will find that marching into flank or rear is thus a rare occurence
Below is the situation Phil "ruled" on - Our Ghaznavid Ghulams (the end couple where the 6 on the die is) could not march into the flank of the archers (Bw) due to the mass of Norman Knights within 400 paces even though their flank was exposed
The others could not march owing to the presence of the Norman Bw&Sp within 400paces - as illustrated by the coloured stick (or the Norman Knights or foot)
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa245/matherd/marching.jpg)
Regards
David Mather
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Ok. I see. Thank you very much. ;)
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Hi again Dave,
Just a final clarification. What would happen if the grey element were 2 cm rightwards? Then the only element within 400 p straight ahead would be the one offering its rear. The other two elements can't be contacted under such initial position.
Thank you.
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Hi again Dave,
Just a final clarification. What would happen if the grey element were 2 cm rightwards? Then the only element within 400 p straight ahead would be the one offering its rear. The other two elements can't be contacted under such initial position.
Thank you.
If the two elements are within 400paces (and not Lh or Ps) then they in my opinion would prevent the march move
Regards
David Mather
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Sorry Dave, but let me be extremely precise. Do you mean 400 p all around or just 400 straight ahead? In this second case the other two elements are not "within 400 p", so the contact would be legal. Is this what you mean?
Thank you.
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Sorry Dave, but let me be extremely precise. Do you mean 400 p all around or just 400 straight ahead? In this second case the other two elements are not "within 400 p", so the contact would be legal. Is this what you mean?
Thank you.
For me now you have to contact all figures with the move - any other figures within 400 paces will stop the march move
So to answer your question - 400p all round
Hence marching into rear or flank will be fairly rare
Given troops turn to face flank attacks or rear attacks if by march (see p35 5th para) its not that big a deal anyway
Regards
David Mather
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Ok. Thank you very much. :)
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Marching again... ;D
I know this already was under 1.0 too, but haven't thought about it until one of my "lawyer" friends asked to me. Can a march move be made after an expansion from a formed column or turning 90? from a formed column? I was sure the answer was yes in both cases, but one of them pointed out that in both cases the group does not move at full speed, so no following marches can be made.
Looking at page 29 I see that contracting into column is the only group move in which "...up to the full tactical move distance..." is specified. Have I being playing wrong for more than 3 years? :-[
Thank you in advance
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I've certainly always played it that an expansion or contraction counts as a full move and therefore can be followed by another march move. No one has ever pulled me up on it.
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Page 28 Marching section:
"All but the final march move .......... must be full distance"
Page 29 line 1:
"An entire ........... full lenght march move can be instead used to change formation by: (dot 1) expanfing from column ...........(dot 3) turning 90 from a straight line"
So expanding or contracting is a full march move and can be followed by more arch moves.
Advice: read the rules :)
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Dear Lorenzo,
Once again, you are my salvation. ;D :P
Thank you very much...again.