DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: bunwin63 on August 20, 2007, 10:34:09 PM
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Do army baggage losses get added to the contributing commands' losses as soon as they occur, or only when the baggage command becomes broken?
Eg 3 commands contribute 2 Bg each to the army baggage. 1 baggage gets chomped. Does each contributing command then get .5 ME losses added to its other losses at that time?
regards
Bryan
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they're lost to every command as soon as they are lost - "lost" includes breaking or destroyed by combat.
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Thanks Aloysius
Bryan
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does the baggage have to be lumped into a baggage command or can it be a part of the command it came from??
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Hi Loki,
Army Baggage is lumped together, but you could instead have Command Baggage, which remains with it's command.
regards
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does the baggage have to be lumped into a baggage command or can it be a part of the command it came from??
If you buy baggage for an ally general, the baggage must be assigned to that command. For other generals, baggage can either be assigned to the command, assigned to another sub's or C-in-C's command, or placed in a separate baggage command.
There are different benefits for each concept: assigning baggage to a command usually provides a slightly greater benefit in Morale Equivalents, but may be more isolated, and therefore hard to defend. Conversely, lumping all the baggage together makes it easier to defend, but doesn't provide as much of a Morale Equivalent benefit.
Of course, there's also the No Baggage option, which some people take - you don't have to worry at all about people sacking your baggage, and you can get a couple more elements, but your Morale Equivalents will be a little lower.
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Well all that is good news. Thanks for the run down.
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If you buy baggage for an ally general, the baggage must be assigned to that command. For other generals, baggage can either be assigned to the command, assigned to another sub's or C-in-C's command, or placed in a separate baggage command.
Really? Can you assign a sub's Bg to another sub's command? How is ME counted now?
Of course, there's also the No Baggage option, which some people take - you don't have to worry at all about people sacking your baggage, and you can get a couple more elements, but your Morale Equivalents will be a little lower.
What!? Why I can't think things like this? ;D It's perfect! ;D. My Bag is usually looted, so I got the solution ;D
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Baggage must either be army baggage or command baggage.
Command baggage must be in the 'owning command'.
Army baggage may be in the command of any non-allied general or may be in a train-only baggage command. In either case, all commands with no command baggage count the effects of army baggage.
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Sure. I understand that. But what do you think about Barritus's option? Can you have Cmd Bge and Army Bge SIMULTANOEUSLY assigned in the same sub's command? Would it modify the ME counts?
Thank you.
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No - I think there is something somewhere which prohibits this - I will check tonight.
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But what do you think about Barritus's option? Can you have Cmd Bge and Army Bge SIMULTANOEUSLY assigned in the same sub's command? Would it modify the ME counts?
Huh? That's not what I said! Read it again:
If you buy baggage for an ally general, the baggage must be assigned to that command. For other generals, baggage can either be assigned to the command, assigned to another sub's or C-in-C's command, or placed in a separate baggage command.
Nothing about simultaneously assigning Army and Command baggage in a single command. :o
It's all described in the section on Baggage on page 9 of the rules.
Here's an example: My Late Imperial Roman army has a Regular C-in-C and two Regular Subs. I've bought the maximum possible baggage, and placed it in a fourth (baggage) command. This means it's Army baggage. I do this because the fourth command gets a PIP dice of its own, making it a useful PIP dump.
Alternatively, I could leave each pair of baggage elements with each command, as Command baggage. That would mean I'd get only the three PIP dice, and no PIP dump.
If I wanted to, I could have one command keep its baggage as Command baggage, and group the other two commands' baggage together as Army baggage, which would still be enough to create a baggage command and give me an extra PIP dice.
Perhaps if you told us what army you've been using, and we could describe some examples for it.
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Oooops! Sorry, I misunderstood you ;D
Thank you for the info.
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Army baggage may be in the command of any non-allied general or may be in a train-only baggage command. In either case, all commands with no command baggage count the effects of army baggage.
P9 Baggage: ... Each general has 0-2 elements. An ally's must, and other general's can,
remain with him as Command Baggage. All other baggage is held in common as Army Baggage. Each non-allied
command without command baggage shares the effects of Army Baggage and it deploys in 1 of them.
[it] When you say "in" the command does this mean that if that command breaks then the army baggage is lost and all contributing commands take the ME loss? I can't derive that meaning from my reading the rules (and I presume I've missed something pivotal). The only thing I've found so far is that army baggage not organised into the single train-only command must deploy in the CinC's or a Sub's command's rectangle. It would appear that Army Baggage does not *have to* be in a separate, train-only command. I see the benefit of army baggage as elevating the break points for the contributing commands but should a contributing command be lost the ME losses to the army are that broken commands ME *not including* the army baggage effect. In light of Toby's msg I'm interested to know whether I've misconstrued this. If an army was organised with a train-only command of WWg and Art but no baggage, can that army still classify each non-allied generals baggage as army baggage?
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Yes it means that - "in" has the simple English meaning of "in"!
if you choose to put your army baggage in a "regular" command (ie 1 with a general) and that command breaks, then the baggage is lost since it is part of a broken command.
This is one reason why army bagage is almost invariably put in a "Train" command without a general, and no it does not HAVE to be in such a command....but it is a good idea.
You could ahve a train command without baggage, but then any army baggage has to be in a single, "regular" command, and is lost if that command is lost.
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I had thought that if army baggage were not in a train comand then it would not be part of any command (so no pip dice) but would deploy in the rectangle of one of the other commands.
But are you saying if it is not in a train command then it is part of a normal command? In which case does it join whichever command it depoys in, or does this need to be specified in the order of battle?
Does a command with army baggage get 0.5 ME for each because it contributed PLUS to ME each that army baggage counts for its own command?
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Army baggage counts 1/2 ME to each command that contributed to it or a general-less command it is part of - and that's all - so there is no double counting (page 42 Morale Equivalents)
AFAIK if army baggage is part of a command then it has to meet all the normal rules for elements of that command - it has to be in the deployment rectangle the same as anything else, and if you're providing OOB's for a competition then you would ahve to put it in the OOB along with everything else unless the organisers say otherwise.
IMO the "deploys in 1 of them" means it is part of one of them - see page 22 "Initial Deployment", 3rd para - "Army baggage (O) included in a command..." - the key word here being "included in" - which to me means it's just more elements of the command and is a clarification of what "deploys in" means - probably an unitentional one, but then I suspect the author didn't think that "deployed in" would be taken to mean what you guys think it means!
It is not relevant that Bg(I), (F) and (S) is not mentioned because this rule is saying how immobile baggage must be deployed - the otehrs can be deployed anywhere in the deployment rectangle.
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AFAIK if army baggage is part of a command then it has to meet all the normal rules for elements of that command - it has to be in the deployment rectangle the same as anything else, and if you're providing OOB's for a competition then you would ahve to put it in the OOB along with everything else unless the organisers say otherwise.
IMO the "deploys in 1 of them" means it is part of one of them - see page 22 "Initial Deployment", 3rd para - "Army baggage (O) included in a command..." - the key word here being "included in" - which to me means it's just more elements of the command and is a clarification of what "deploys in" means - probably an unitentional one, but then I suspect the author didn't think that "deployed in" would be taken to mean what you guys think it means!
[it] P22 para 3 does *not* say this, Mike. You've added the word "army" to suit your argument, I suspect - it says "Any Baggage(O) ... ". What else have you got for me that indicates army baggage must be organised into a command, with or without a general? And btw I understand "deploys in" to mean that the baggage elements are placed during the deployment phase within the rectangle describing the orthoganal extents of the elements of the command that it deploys in.
Cheers,
Ivan.
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oops - you're right - I misread "any" as army!! Mea culpa!
AFAIK there is nothing specifically about baggage having to be in a command over and above any other troops having to be in a command. DBMM says "An army is organised in to 1-4 commands..", etc - as far as I can see there is no provision for any troops to be outside that structure.
however I stand by my analysis of the wording for army baggage - it does not say that army baggage deploys in the rectangle of a command - it says that it deploys in the command itself.
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AFAIK there is nothing specifically about baggage having to be in a command over and above any other troops having to be in a command. DBMM says "An army is organised in to 1-4 commands..", etc - as far as I can see there is no provision for any troops to be outside that structure.
That makes sense. I agree, you are right, army baggage must be in a command.
however I stand by my analysis of the wording for army baggage - it does not say that army baggage deploys in the rectangle of a command - it says that it deploys in the command itself.
Although I can see how you could get this from the words, I don't think that the army baggage can actually be part of a general's command.. It says "it deploys in one of them" and "them" refers to commands without baggage. If the army baggage is part of a general's command, it has to deploy as part of that command. But that command is not a command without baggage (it has the army baggage). This is a contradiction.
This implies that army baggage MUST be in a train command.
"it deploys in one of them" also applies to baggage in a train command. If it means they are part of the command they deploy in, then the train command is part of a general's command as well as being a separate, general-less command. This is another contradiction. So it can't mean they are part of the command in which they deploy.
On p 22 we have "...each command with a general must depoy inside a rectangle..." The army baggage train command does not have a general so this says nothing about where to deploy it. IMO "it deploys in one of them" resolves this and means "it deploys in one of their rectangles".
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"Them" refers to the commands without command baggage - it has nothing to do with not having any baggage at all.
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"Them" refers to the commands without command baggage - it has nothing to do with not having any baggage at all.
OOps, yes, you are right, I misread that one.
OK, what about the other contradiction?
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The "with a general" bit seems fair enough - a general-less command can deploy its troops anywhere - makes some sense - you can have baggage behind hte army, and potentially artillery in front.
However it is of no relevance to the bit about "deploys in 1 of them" because the command itself is "1 of them" - it is a non-allied command that lacks command baggage!
All in all I think this is angels on het head of a pin stuff - we are trying to tease a precise and exact meaning from wording which, alas, does not lend itself to that.
In lieu of such exact wording I'd have to take refuge in the bit about "the letter and spirit of the rules" - which is an out for any umpire to do whatever he can rationalise without causing too much outcry from players! for me it is that baggage as its own command deploys in its own rectangle. This is how people have been playing it here & it's simple, understandable, and at least reasonably realistic IMO.
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So the baggage rules can be clarified:
Command baggage is part of its general's command.
Army baggage must be part of a general's command which has no command baggage, or of a train command with no general. This must be designated in the order of battle.
If army baggage is part of a general's command it must be deployed in his rectangle.
Elements of a train command can be depoyed anywhere, regardless of rectangles. However, the relative position of the train command still needs to be specifed at stage 1 of deployment.
If army baggage is part of a general's command and that command is broken, the army baggage is lost and all commands that contributed to army baggage lose the relevant MEs. The army loses the sum of these MEs (i.e. counting towards army defeat).
If army baggage is in a train command, it is not lost when a contributing general's command is broken. The army only loses the MEs for actual elements in the broken command. When the train command is broken all army baggage is lost, all contributing commands lose the relevant MEs and the army loses the sum of these.
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Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. ???
Thank you
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Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. ???
Thank you
The rules allow you to do all sorts of things that give you no obvious tactical advantage.
I still have my doubts about Mike's interpretation - I think Phil would have said "must belong to" instead of "must deploy in" if he intended army baggage to belong to one of the contributing commands. If baggage belongs to a command then the deployment rules already tell us it deploys in that command. It is not often that Phil adds redundant wording.
However, Mike has no doubt and the additional possibility which that allows would not appear to offer any significant advantage, so there's not much point in arguing the case any further.
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Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. ???
Thank you
;) because it is then easier to move, especially away form that pesky flank march, get those camels into the dunes sir.
William
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I've only used mobile baggage once IIRC, but others have done so more often, and it seems to me that that the "best" mobile baggage is actually an irregular command without a general.
Baggage in a general's command takes a lot of PIPs away from the "real" troops, whereas a train command gets its own PIPs. A regular train command almost always gets teh low PIPs, so nrarely has enough, but an irregular one gets a range from 1-6 PIPs/turn, and is often able to make a couple of march moves per turn - and often doing that for a few turns is all that is required to get out of trouble.
Lawrence Phil has often left redundant or irrelevant wording in parts of the rules he hasn't paid too much attention to, or put a couple of extra words in that are probably not needed and have confused the issue for many - the ruels for impetuous columns are a good example of bad wording...and I'm sure you can come up with many others - the commentary is full of them :(
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Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. ???
[it] Separating the irregular train from the regular train (WWg, Art) thereby giving the train command a regular PIP die.
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using mobile baggage with a Regular Inert C-in-C is also a nightmare if you give the train command the lowest pip dice as you often then end up with zero pip's with that command!
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I've only used mobile baggage once IIRC, but others have done so more often, and it seems to me that that the "best" mobile baggage is actually an irregular command without a general.
Baggage in a general's command takes a lot of PIPs away from the "real" troops, whereas a train command gets its own PIPs. A regular train command almost always gets teh low PIPs, so nrarely has enough, but an irregular one gets a range from 1-6 PIPs/turn, and is often able to make a couple of march moves per turn - and often doing that for a few turns is all that is required to get out of trouble.
:) Good to see you on the ball Mike.
Any mobile baggage as part of a train command will only get a maximum of 2 moves, if F train in a sub general or CinCs command it can move a few more times. Reg Bg(F) can move 4 times if in group with reg sub general ( and in his command ) with a 6, and 7 times with a doubled 6 so could move a good distance from danger. But who would turn down a good pip dump ;) .
William
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Now that Bagagge ME has been changed, I have a question related to the new army list calculator and I would like some confirmation. If I read correctly, if my 6 element Army Baggage (all Irr Bg) is sacked, I will lose 6 ME for the whole army and each command will lose 6 ME too. Isn't it a bit too much? But the situation with Reg Bg is even worse... :-\
Thank you
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Nope. The army will lose 6 ME and the commands won't notice at all.
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But on page 43 is read that "..it adds its ME to its own command and to the baggage command (so counts twice towards the total army ME)." ???
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Not sure why you think that means losses are applied to the contributing command, but the following sentence is explicit:
Its loss affects the morale only of troops aware of this, so its ME is then added to the losses of the command now including it, but not to that of a command that contributed it but does not include it (since this will not yet know of the loss and malnutrition is not retrospective).
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Oooops. You're right! :P So I don't understand the statement for double counting. What's that to be double counted?
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:P So I don't understand the statement for double counting. What's that to be double counted?
If i have this correct,
6 Irr Bge = 6ME in the Army Baggage Command,and every command also gets 2 ME of Command Baggage. :)
LES
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Then I was almost right. If one army baggage command element is sacked, not only 1 ME is lost for the army, but all commands lose 1 ME too. So my question arises again. Can they lose up to 6 (12 if regular) ME if all army baggage is sacked?
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Then I was almost right.
No, you were completely wrong. :p
Perhaps an example will help. Our Exemplarian army has three commands each of 20 ME of fighting troops. Each command also has two elements of Irr Bge pooled as an army baggage command.
Each fighting command thus has a total ME of 20+2=22.
The baggage command has 6 ME.
The total army ME is 22+22+22+6=72 (this is where the "double counting" comes in: each baggage element counts 1 ME twice, once for its parent command, once for the baggage command).
If now some evil Didactian horsemen destroy one of the baggage elements, the baggage command now has 5 ME left (and the army 71). The fighting commands still have 22 ME each - they're "unaware" that the baggage's been sacked.
Is that clearer?
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Orcoteuthis,that is a great way to explain it. :).All you need to do is add 6 ME,to total army ME if you have Reg Bge,and take 1 extra ME off if 1 gets destroyed.
LES
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Well, I have to admit I was completely wrong ;D. A wonderfully clear example. Thank you.
By the way, do you know the las army list gneraton on the Yahoo list? It doesn't count command Bge, just army Bge. Is it bugged or I'm just missing something more about Bge? :P
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By the way, do you know the las army list gneraton on the Yahoo list? It doesn't count command Bge, just army Bge. Is it bugged or I'm just missing something more about Bge? :P
I haven't looked at the thing, but it sounds like it's buggy. Command baggage works pretty much like any other element, ME-wise, adding its ME value (once) to that of the command.
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Ok. Thank you.