DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: bunwin on February 25, 2008, 07:23:47 AM
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When a command becomes broken, do the MEs contributed to that command from army baggage count as lost.
Say your army has 60ME including 12 ME for army baggage. A command is made up of 28ME plus 3ME for army baggage. When that command becomes broken, does 28ME or 31ME count as lost?
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I think its the full 31 ME, otherwise there would be 9 ME that could never be broken.
Check the commentary though on the main site, as I think it answers the question porperly.
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In my opinion the answer from Toby should be correct.
In the Army List Generator, which you can find by the resources at the home-page, I have calculated the Total Army ME is as the sum of all the Total Commands ME, which are, of course, inclusive the Army Bagage.
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The 9 ME can be broken if the army baggage gets destroyed
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Check the commentary though on the main site, as I think it answers the question porperly.
It's in the commentary, but as one of Hammy's unanswered questions!
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Yes it's one of Hammy's questions that is answered by readinf the rules - beginners I understand wondering about it....but not the likes of Mr Hammond.
Under "Lost and/or removed troops" page 42 it says that "All elements of a broken command are lost".
- the Baggage is not part of the command, so does not count as lost.
It serves solely to increase the break (& disheartened & shattered) points of the command and the army.
the flip side is that if the baggage is lost then the break point of every command that contributed to it is lowered - but again eth baggage does not count as "lost" to those commands.
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thanks Mike
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Yeah - Mike is right and I was wrong. The ME will be lost when the baggage command is lost. I am sure this is addressed in the Commentary document?
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As far as I can see the question is raised but not resolved in the section "Army Baggage Losses"
thanks
BU
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Just to confirm, the ME contributed by the baggage is not lost when a command is broken. An example with 3 9ME commands with a Army baggage Train command
A: 9+3 = 12 (3,4,6)
B: 9+3 = 12 (3,4,6)
C: 9+3 = 12 (3,4,6)
Ab: 3
Total ME 39 (19.5)
If Command A loses >4 ME it is broken, but only 9 ME is counted as lost as these are the ME from the elements in the command.
If the Ab command was broken you would lose 12 ME straight up, with 3 each coming from each command (so each command is close to disheartened!
Please note this is an artificial example as most armies are bigger than 39ME, so the effect of the Ab is a bit less. However at about 300AP my Samurai come close (lots of DBE troops so lots of points for few ME). You could get this in a 200AP game.
Hope this helps,
G^is,
JohnG
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Penda it was the Road to Damascus for me too....I'd "simply" assumed that baggage ME's were lost with the rest of the command as a hangover from DBM.....I don't think I'd ever actually read the "lost and/or destroyed elements" section until I did so to answer the question above.
It certainly makes army baggage better than the way I had been playing it - often I had wondered why you'd have army baggage rathe than command when 2 command baggage gives you 4 ME's and sharing 6 army baggage only gives you 3.
now I know! :)
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Thats a crowded road
Not how we have been playing it either but been wrong before :-[
Does make one or two other bits fall into place
Many Thanks
David Mather
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In the Excel DBMM Army List generator, wich is available on the website, the total ME of a command is inclusive the Army Bagage.
This is ok?, but if you loose the command apparently it isn't the total ME you loose towards the Army ME.
So this can be confusing.
Does somebody likes me to change this in any way.
For example I can mention both.
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Yes the command total includes baggage - that is OK
but when the command is lost, the army only loses the command total WITHOUT baggage - I'll change the list generator I made (I think there's a few isn't there?) some time today probably to reflect this.
So using Platypus's example above and expanding it a bit:
Command 1: 9 ME + 3 Bg ME = 12 ME. disheartened over 3, broken over 4, shattered over 6
Command 2: 9 ME + 3 Bg ME = 12 ME. disheartened over 3, broken over 4, shattered over 6
Command 3: 9 ME + 3 Bg ME = 12 ME. disheartened over 3, broken over 4, shattered over 6
Command 4: 6 Army baggage = 3 ME. dishearened over 1, broken over 1, shattered over 1.5
So army total is 39 (3 commands each of 12 + 3 for the baggage command), so defeated if it loses more than 19.5
But each of commands 1, 2 and 3 only count as 9 ME lost when they are broken - because they only have 9 ME of elements, and only the elements actually in the commands count as lost - the 3 ME for the baggage do not count as lost because those elements are not actually part of the command.
If Command 1 and Command 2 are broken that's a total of only 18 ME - the army is not broken.
Also if the baggage is destroyed then it only counts as 3 ME's lost because only the 3 ME's in het baggaeg command actually count lost.
Commands 1, 2 and 3 will become smaller if the baggage is lost, making them easier to break - ie they will count as 9 ME's instead of 12 since they no longer have baggage, so they are disheartened at 2.5, broken over 3 and shattered over 4.5.
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Hi
>Also if the baggage is destroyed then it only counts as 3 ME's lost because only the 3 ME's in het >baggaeg command actually count lost.
Are you sure about this ? if Army Baggage Cmd is Lost I would count it as 12MEs lost (assuming 3 Cmd contributing 2 Bag each) towards total army morale, ie 3 for the Cmd itself plus -3ME for each contributing Cmd ?
You may be saying same thing by reducing ME levels that Cmds then break at ?
Thankfully I have not yet lost an entire Army Baggage Cmd to test my theory :-)
Cheers
Gary
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I'm pretty sure.....always open to counter argument that I can understand!! :)
the 3 ME's per command are not LOST as such - because only elements belonging to the command can be lost - and the 3 ME's per command are not actually elements that belong to each command - they are "free" ME's from the army baggage.
So what happens when the baggage is lost is that the other commands no longer get those 3 ME's - but those 3 ME's no longer count to the size of the command.
Losing 3 ME's per command is not nearly the same as having each command 3 ME's smaller - losing 3 ME's is a disaster - it almost immedediately disheartens the command even if nothing else is lost, whereas being 3 ME's smaller means teh various morale points are less, but it doesn't actually contribute any ME's towards those points.
Losing 3 ME's is much worse than suddenly becoming 3 ME's smaller.
Hmm...trying to explain here.....consider if one of those commands had lost 2 ME and then the baggage was lost.
If the bagage counted 3 ME's lost then the command would go to 5 ME's lost, and be broken.
If the baggage makes the command 3 ME's smaller (from 12 down to 9 ME's) then the command is disheartened if it loses more than 2.25 ME's (ie >1/4 of 9) - so it is istill fine...for a limited time at least.
It's added complication compared to DBM and I'm not sure it was worth it for the effect :(
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Which means (if this is right) that when you are noting down the break points of your commands (or in your spreadsheet), you need two columns for each command, for disheartened, break and shatter with and without the army baggage.
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Hi
Hmmm...........
I think my way of interpretating is easier but not nessecarily correct as rules are written ? ???
The advantage of Army Baggage is that it is grouped in a Cmd that is hopefully not likely to be attacked and can be in a fortified Camp, but yet gives a Morale Boost to each contibuting Cmd (ie the troops are bouyed by fact their baggage is 'safe'). I still think it loss (as a Cmd) would affect every Cmd ie a -3ME usually
Placing Baggage directly with individual Cmds gives a greater Morale boost (4ME rather than 3) but the baggage is more vulnerable as its within each Cmds 'rectangle' and its loss is of course just as potentially serious. Flip side is it only effects a single Cmd compared with loss of Army Baggage.
Otherwise as Toby says you would have to keep 2 ME records per Cmd which seems tad odd.
In my 'method' once you lose the Army Baggage in its entirety with (assuming 3 Cmds worth) each Cmd suffering a -3ME loss and the Army overall counting -12ME. But if the Army Baggage is only damaged but not broken then the CMds suffer no ME hit and Army overall onlt the individual base loss/es. Unusual for this to happen I suspect unless you have BgF which gets hit but then 'runs' away.
This is similar then to 3 Cmds with 2 pieces of Baggage attached all losing said baggage working out as -4ME per CMd and -12ME to Army.
This is of course serious losses but then surely thats the point ?
Of course Baggage is no longer compulsory so one does not need to field any but your overall Army ME size is thereby reduced, I like having the differing choices.
Of course using the Baggage Cmd as a PIP 'dump' is another choice for some armies
Cheers
Gary
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Which means (if this is right) that when you are noting down the break points of your commands (or in your spreadsheet), you need two columns for each command, for disheartened, break and shatter with and without the army baggage.
It's worse than that - those levels will change depending on how much baggage you lose.....what if you only lose 2 out of 6....:)
I agree it would be much simpler if the whole command just counted lost!
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Hi guys,
The spreadsheet I use has 2 columns for ME, one with baggage (to calculate breakpoints), and one without. In fact I calculate the ME of all elements first, then add the baggage contributions, then calculate breaks and add total army ME.
If you lose the baggage command, then (in my example), the army has lost 12 ME. 3ME for the baggage command and 3 ME each from each of the commands as the baggage is no longer "contributing". These ME is counted as "lost" for the commands in question. So in my example, sacking the baggage puts that army a fair way to breaking, and all commands close to disheartened. Army Baggage is pretty much putting all your eggs in one basket.
Each baggage element you lose in an Army Baggage command loses 0.5 to the command itself, and 0.5 to each contributing command.
I'm starting to use empty bases with "0.5 ME" written on them and chuck them on the command's dead-pile as a reminder. Mind you I've never had to use them as I have never lost baggage in DBMM!!
I _have_ sacked baggage but.....
And yes, it could have been simpler. But it isn't. It _is_ flexible though!
Cheers,
JohnG
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Well, I've got to say that way (Platypus and Michael Campbell's way) isn't the way I've done it. I've always assumed that loss of a command entailed loss of its Army Baggage as well. It probably won't have had a serious effect on any of my games, but it certainly counts a lot more with small armies, such as my little Nikephorian Byzantine army.
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It isn't how I've ever payed it either.
However I will change my mind and say that how Platypus treats baggage losses for the commands "sharing it" is probably correct rather than the system I posted above, ie destroyed baggage counts as "lost" to eth contributing commands and so contributes to break points.
However when commands sharing army baggage break, the army baggage itself has NOT broken, so still does not count as lost.