DBMM Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Michal Ciemniewski on March 01, 2008, 10:56:35 AM
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Hi,
I am new to DBMM. I have been playing DBA for a 2 years now and I would like to start DBMM. I have decided to collect Seleucids [320-280]. I will collect them for DBA and for DBMM.
I think about a small DBMM army. Maby 300AP? Could You help me with my first rooster?
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G'day Michal, and welcome to the fourm.
What experience do you have with DBMM? Not much?
If you have little experience with DBMM, my first suggestion would be to use post-280 Seleucids if you have any choice about it. The pre-280 list gives you a lot more elephants, but at the cost of including compulsory Ax (O). This makes no difference in DBA, but is a more serious issue in DBMM. In the post-280 list, the Ax (O) are replaced by compulsory Ax (S). In DBMM they cost only 1 AP more, but they are 1 Morale Equivalent each, where Ax (O) are only 0.5 ME each. DBMM also makes (S) troops much more powerful than (O), and Ax (S) have a Quick Kill against Spear. Elephants are a powerful weapon, but they are hard to use well. Altogether, I think this makes the 280-205 Seleucids more useful than the 320-280 Seleucids. Of course, none of this stops you from having 320-280 Seleucids for your DBA army - all of the elements you'd need in that would already be in your DBMM army.
Having said that, when putting together a Seleucid army, I recommend a very simple structure, with few different troop types. The Seleucid list provides so many useful troop types that it's tempting to use many or all of them. In my experience, this is a mistake. Concentrate on Pike, Auxilia and Psiloi for the centre, and a mix of mounted troops (Knights, Light Horse, Elephants and Cavalry) for the flanks. Don't bother with Artillery, Expendables, Warband, Hordes, Bow or Camels. This organisation then suggests a simple deployment plan - infantry in the centre and mounted on the flanks. And this, in turn, suggests PIP dice assignment for DBMM - lowest PIP dice in the centre, and higher PIP dice on the flanks.
Good luck with your army.
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Thanks a lot!
How experienced I am? I am not experienced at all. :D I read the rules now [the writing tyle is not the helping factor] but it will take me few more days to understand the general idea how DBMM works. That is why I asked for help. A sample army list with some commens would help.
280-208 Seleucids is as good as 320-280. As You said. There are no differences between those 2 armies in DBA terms.
I was thinking about putting together a simple army. Still some tasty little additions like 2 artillery would be a nice thing to have. Bows/Camelry [which I like], warbands or Sch Chariots [very Seleucid] can wait. They were not the core of the army anyway.
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At the back of the rules book there are rules for two variants of DBMM at (nominally) 100 AP and 200 AP. These can make quite good little battles to get your mind round the rules and also allow you to not have to fork out too much for lead in one go. DBMM100 armies are also not much larger than DBA armies.
In terms of troop compositions, Seleucid should be in the next batch of lists that Phil puts on the DBMM list so you should get more clarity in what the troop gradings will be. Whatever happens it will still be an army with a lot of possible different troop types, which makes it a good starter for a lot of other different armies.
I think there might even be some DBMM 100 and DBMM 200 competitions being planned, depending on where you are.
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New Seleucid list? Great!
I will have to read DBMM 200 rules then.
DBMM competitions? In Poland? Hmm... Hard to believe ;D. I wish there were but there are no gamers in Poland to run a competition like that. :(
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Ok. Here it is. My first dbmm rooster:
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) CinC
5 Line cavalry Reg Kn(F)
3 Skythians Irr Lh(F)
2 Elephants Irr El(O)
1 Sub-general Reg Pk(S)
7 Argyraspids Reg Pk(S)
16 Phalanx Reg Pk(O)
6 Asiatic archers and slingers Irr Ps(O)
6 Thureophoroi and thorakitai Reg Ax(S)
4 Kappadokian Irr Ps(S)
2 Heavy bolt-shooter Reg Art(O)
TOTAL: 304 AP
This is my first list so please rate the list. Unit balance, unit types etc. How to use regular and irr light troops, is the Pk core to big/to small? Is the number od Ax/Ps ok? Maby I should change asiatic Ps to Bw?
I was also thinking about an ambush.
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A lot of it depends on your playing style.
2 commands is never normally a good idea. I'm not sure what army size you are targetting - most competition armies are 400 AP and the army lists tend to work best at this size (apart from scenario games which tend to be much larger).
The ME for your commands are 21 and 40, so if the pike command loses 14 ME and breaks, the whole army will break, which means you can lose the army despite only a fifth of the army being killed.
Normally people tend to have two commands of mounted/light troops and a central command of pike for Hellenistic armies.
Remember as well the DBMM regular command system - its best to design it so that 1 command can always cope with a very low PIP dice and one can exploit a high PIP dice. Personally I like to give one flank (the one with the Kn(F)) the high dice as the hammer command. The other flank can then get the low dice as the refused flank. This then leaves the phalanx with the middle dice. This seems excessive early in the game but can be useful later in the game when the phalanx is starting to get broken up. If however you are fighting a mounted enemy (like Parthians), you probably need both flanks to have reasonable dice and the phalanx will just have to cope with the low dice. It probably won't be able to do much anyway.
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I know that the propotions depends on playing style but until my first few games I will have to base on Your advise.
400AP? Why not. The army is still not that big [I can paint all element in few months]. You advise me to add an extra general?
Ok. 400AP list:
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) CinC 31
5 Line cavalry Reg Kn(F) 55
2 Elephants Irr El(O) 32
1 Sub-general Reg Pk(S) SG 25
7 Argyraspids Reg Pk(S) 35
16 Phalanx Reg Pk(O) 64
6 Asiatic archers and slingers Irr Bw(I) 18
6 Thureophoroi and thorakitai Reg Ax(S) 30
4 Kappadokian Irr Ps(S) 12
2 Heavy bolt-shooter Reg Art(O) 16
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) SG 31
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) 11
1 Agema Reg Kn(F) 11
3 Skythians Irr Lh(F) 12
2 Tarantines Reg Lh(O) 10
AMBUSH 10
403
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I will forbear to mention that you should probably drop a bw(I) to bring it down to 400 AP.
The line, companions and agema are going to be problematic. Some of them may be wedged Kn(F), the line possibly unwedged. The wedged ones are impetuous, so you probably want to keep them them all in one command. Kn(F) can also be quite brittle, which is an argument for either having the minimum of them, or having the maximum of them in one big block to try and punch through. The 'refused' flank might be better off with Cv(O) if any are available, and some LH(O) on both flanks.
The pike block will get a free march move each turn if the front two ranks are entirely Pike, and will also get a free PIP from the sub-general if it is entirely regular. You might be better off moving the Bw(I) into the refused flank command because I suspect they will never get to move up with the phalanx. I would just make the phalanx command pike, possibly with some Ps at the back of the block. It can then continue to grind forward even if it gets the low PIP. Move the terrain troops into the refused flank command and use the PIPs from that command to move them around - they want to be getting into bits of terrain and acting as the hinge to the pike block.
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I am starting to uderstand how the whole thing works :) Now I have 3 groups of similar piont size. How about it now? I also removed Bw - I like Bw a lot in DBA but they were making my first list hard to compose.
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) CinC 31
5 Line cavalry Reg Kn(F) 55
2 Elephants Irr El(O) 32
3 Skythians Irr Lh(F) 12
1 Sub-general Reg Pk(S) SG 25
7 Argyraspids Reg Pk(S) 35
16 Phalanx Reg Pk(O) 64
6 Asiatic slingers Irr Ps(O) 12
2 Heavy bolt-shooter Reg Art(O) 16
1 Sub-general Reg Kn(F) SG 31
2 Tarantines Reg Lh(O) 10
3 Galatian cavalry Irr Cv(O) 21
6 Thureophoroi and thorakitai Reg Ax(S) 30
4 Kappadokian Irr Ps(S) 12
Ambush
Total AP: 396
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Looking better (or more conventional - the two things might not be the same).
The ME are now:
21
32
17
so the disheartening and break points are:
5.25/7
8/10.6
4.25/5.6
So losing 4 Kn(F) will break the first command, which seems reasonable. If you can move 3 more ME into it though, you can afford to lose 5 Kn(F) before the command breaks. Having the elephants in there helps put off people with better quality Kn from attacking you but might reduce the mobility of the Kn(F).
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Thx a milion! - I will take a closer look at the "elephant flank" and I will try to add an extra Kn or two.
Colud You explain me how Irr and Reg rules works? Can not find it in the rulebook. What is the difference?
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Hi Michal,
I notice you have Taratines Lh as 5AP,when in fact there are only 4AP and as your army list is only 396AP,this will allow to buy 6 Irr Hd(O) to add to the C-in-Cs command(don't worry about moving them just leave at the back).This will bring the ME up to 24.As for the Irr,Reg rules have a look at page 27 PIP expenditure,you will see generally it costs more PIPs to move Irrs than Regs if you want to move other than straight ahead.Also page 30 Spontaneous Advance,generally there are more Irrs doing this than Regs.There are more,but these I think are the main ones.
LES.
PS,I am glade you droped the Bw as you are only allowed to upgrade 1/2 the Ps on that line to Bw.
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I have double checked and the reg LH(O) are 5Ap...
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Yes - Reg LH(O) are 5 AP.
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Sorry about that,been use to Reg and Irr Lh costing the same for to long.So you have 4AP to spend.
LES.
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New changes. I subtract 2 Pk and Ambush and added 2 Kn(F). Now I need to loose 5 Kn elements to get in trouble. I am not sure if the balance between Pk and Kn is ok but it is close to DBA list:
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) CinC
7 Line cavalry Reg Kn(F)
2 Elephants Irr El(O)
3 Skythians Irr Lh(F)
0
1 Sub-general Reg Pk(S) SG
7 Argyraspids Reg Pk(S)
14 Phalanx Reg Pk(O)
6 Asiatic slingers Irr Ps(O)
2 Heavy bolt-shooter Reg Art(O)
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) SG
2 Tarantines Reg Lh(O)
3 Galatian cavalry Irr Cv(O)
6 Thureophoroi and thorakitai Reg Ax(S)
4 Kappadokian Irr Ps(S)
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Michal
Your army is quite similar to an Alexandrian Macedonian army I designed a couple of months ago. It was based on a proposed version of the Alex Mac list, which may well not be the final design.
Command 1:
Brilliant general
4 Kn (F) Companions
2 LH (S) Prodromoi
4 Ax (S) Hypaspists
4 Irr Ax (S) Thracians
4 Irr Ps (S) Illyrians
Command 2:
Sub as Kn (F)
16 Pk (O) Pezhetairoi
4 Ps (O) Cretans
1 Cv (I) Greek
Command 3:
Sub as Cv
4 Cv (O) Thessalians
3 Irr LH (O) Paionians
8 Irr Ax (S) Thracians
4 Ps (S) Agrianians
Command 4:
6 Irr Bg (O)
I'd recommend against using Brilliant Generals early on, until you become more familiar with the rules. But as I have a figure of Alexander as my Commander-in-Chief, it seems only right to field him, and use him appropriately.
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Who can field "Bg (O)"?
How many points is Your army?
Yes, Salaucids are similiar to Macedonians. They only get few extra "asian" element types: chariots, elephants, camels etc. I will try to use them after few games.
Why did You take mounted general for Your Pk block?
Seleukos I Nikator or any other seleucid general was not a brilliant one :)
I like Your Command 1:
Superior LH, few Kn, some difficult terrain specialists.
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Who can field "Bg (O)"?
It is not clear at the moment! But it is likely that all Hellenistic armies will be entitled to Irregular Baggage (O). It will not be certain until List Book 2 is published, and we do not know when that will be.
The general rule is that all armies can field 0-2 elements of baggage per command. For most armies, baggage is irregular. In the only published list book, the only armies which got regular baggage were Byzantines, some Chinese, and Koreans. Again, for most armies, baggage is (O), which represents tents. Usually only nomad armies get Baggage (F), which represents pack mules and horses. A few armies can alternatively get Baggage (I), which represents unruly farm animals.
The advantage of baggage is that it increases command sizes very cheaply.
How many points is Your army?
400 points.
Yes, Salaucids are similiar to Macedonians. They only get few extra "asian" element types: chariots, elephants, camels etc. I will try to use them after few games.
One little hint. If you intend to use Scythed Chariots, also purchase the "Unusual Weapons" stratagem. This allows you to deploy them after your opponent deploys. If the Scythed Chariots are part of a command which deploys wide, you will have a lot of options as to where to deploy them.
Why did You take mounted general for Your Pk block?
Two reasons. Firstly, according to the list, if I wish to have a Pk general, I have to have two of them, and I do not wish to do that. Secondly, he is a useful movile reserve in case the enemy breaks through the phalanx.
Seleukos I Nikator or any other seleucid general was not a brilliant one :)
Antiochus III is, from 220BC.
I like Your Command 1:
Superior LH, few Kn, some difficult terrain specialists.
Yes, in my opinion, the Kn (F) are not a powerful enough attacking force by themselves. In your army, you support them with elephants, which is good. I rely on good support from the LH (S), and Brilliant Alexander. The Ax (S) are useful general purpose troops, and Ps are useful for skirmishing, and for dealing with elephants.
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One little hint. If you intend to use Scythed Chariots, also purchase the "Unusual Weapons" stratagem. This allows you to deploy them after your opponent deploys. If the Scythed Chariots are part of a command which deploys wide, you will have a lot of options as to where to deploy them.
Great tip but do my C-in-C has to be inert? I would like to change few Kn with Sch and see how they work.
Antiochus III is, from 220BC.
Was he a seleucid general? hmm...
Yes, in my opinion, the Kn (F) are not a powerful enough attacking force by themselves. In your army, you support them with elephants, which is good. I rely on good support from the LH (S), and Brilliant Alexander. The Ax (S) are useful general purpose troops, and Ps are useful for skirmishing, and for dealing with elephants.
Alexander's army has many S troops :) And yes, loosing Elephants to Ps is painful. :) I hope I will find an opponent to try out my Seleucids [I hope I will finish then in 2-3 months].
P.S.
I am still thinking if the Pk block is not to big ...
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I said:
One little hint. If you intend to use Scythed Chariots, also purchase the "Unusual Weapons" stratagem. This allows you to deploy them after your opponent deploys. If the Scythed Chariots are part of a command which deploys wide, you will have a lot of options as to where to deploy them.
Michael replied:Great tip but do my C-in-C has to be inert? I would like to change few Kn with Sch and see how they work.
No, your C-in-C does not have to be Inert. Unusual Weapons is one of the few stratagems which inert generals can use, but that does not mean only inert generals can use the stratagem.
I said:Antiochus III is [brilliant], from 220BC.
Michal said:Was he a seleucid general? hmm...
Yes, he certainly was. He led the Seleucid army against the Ptolemaic army at Raphia in about 217BC, and against the Romans at Magnesia in about 190BC.
I am still thinking if the Pk block is not to big ...
It's hard to say. Pk are a good source of cheap Morale Equivalents. But they need to deploy deep, which keeps your army narrow. This increases the pressure on your flanks. Therefore, if you are going to take that many Pk, you need to be aggressive with them, to win in the centre, and be able to support your flanks.
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t's hard to say. Pk are a good source of cheap Morale Equivalents. But they need to deploy deep, which keeps your army narrow. This increases the pressure on your flanks. Therefore, if you are going to take that many Pk, you need to be aggressive with them, to win in the centre, and be able to support your flanks.
Hmm... I will try to reduce the block a bit a see what happends. I still have 2 columns of Argyraspids.
Yes, he certainly was. He led the Seleucid army against the Ptolemaic army at Raphia in about 217BC, and against the Romans at Magnesia in about 190BC.
hehe I checked and You are right. He was a Seleucid. Funny thing is that he lost both those battles :D Brilliant :P I will use him anyway. ;)
1 Antiochus II the Great Reg Kn(F) CinCbr
7 Line cavalry Reg Kn(F)
2 Elephants Irr El(O)
3 Skythians Irr Lh(F)
1 Sub-general Reg Pk(S) SG
7 Argyraspids Reg Pk(S)
12 Phalanx Reg Pk(O)
6 Asiatic slingers Irr Ps(O)
2 Heavy bolt-shooter Reg Art(O)
1 Companions Reg Kn(F) SG
2 Tarantines Reg Lh(O)
3 Galatian cavalry Irr Cv(O)
6 Thureophoroi and thorakitai Reg Ax(S)
4 Kappadokian Irr Ps(S)
No Ambush, 395AP, 5 AP left.
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In which case, you could spend the 5 points on a stratagem available only to Brilliant generals - like Change Deployment.
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Good idea! It is much better then 2 extra Ps elements...
Barritus. Have You ever used of fought against bolt-shooters? Can they cause any damage? :D I took 2 bolts because I like the idea but are they worth taking [I will use them anyway for my first few games]?
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Yes, he certainly was. He led the Seleucid army against the Ptolemaic army at Raphia in about 217BC, and against the Romans at Magnesia in about 190BC.
hehe I checked and You are right. He was a Seleucid. Funny thing is that he lost both those battles :D Brilliant :P I will use him anyway. ;)
He did very well against the Parthians and others in the East and got his revenge against the Ptolemies at Panion.
As far as the unusual troops goes, if your opponent knows what army you are taking there is a good chance he will take scouting which is pretty likely to discover the strategem. You might get a bit of trying to double guess the opponent "Well he knows I'll take unusual troops so he'll take scouting but I know that so I won't take unusual troops but he knows that I know he'll take scouting and that I won't bother taking unsual troops so he won't bother taking scouting so..."
Although scouting is also useful against ambush for instance. I can't remember if it can be used vs. change deployment. That is a great strategem, but make sure you deploy the army in a way that leaves room for the commands to swap position. You have to redeploy either as they were in the other place or as a mirror image.
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Chaning Deployment is close to the DBA one. I am familiar with the idea.
He did very well against the Parthians and others in the East and got his revenge against the Ptolemies at Panion.
It was a joke :D Anyway. Syrian wars were always up's nad down's either for Ptolemic or Seleucids. Doing well against Parthians is something. Even Romans had great problems with them. To bw honest they had problems with all fully mounted armies :P
Antiochus II the Great
New idea. I think I should update my Kn(F) to Kn(X) and El(O) or El(S) because it is more propper for Antiochus and his fight against Romans.
I hope I will be able to collect a Roman army to face my Seleucids. I was always keen on wars between roman empire and Alexanders' Diadochi.
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If you Antiochus as Brilliant you will almost certainly have to upgrade most of your Kn to X and have fewer elephants all as (S). I suspect you might end up with 0-1 Kn(F) wedge, 0-1 Kn(F) or (X) and the rest as Kn(X).
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I suspect you might end up with 0-1 Kn(F) wedge, 0-1 Kn(F) or (X) and the rest as Kn(X).
Do I have to update all Kn to X or is it optional?
and have fewer elephants all as (S)
Still max 3 elephants.
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Barritus. Have You ever used of fought against bolt-shooters? Can they cause any damage? :D I took 2 bolts because I like the idea but are they worth taking [I will use them anyway for my first few games]?
I have used them and fought against them. My view is that you do not take them with the object of destroying enemy elements. Instead, they are there to break up enemy formations, to scare off enemy light horse, or to draw out an opponent who otherwise wishes to stand still. I do not think I have ever destroyed an element with Art (O) in DBMM.
They also tend to get left behind because it costs an extra PIP to move a group containing them.
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New idea. I think I should update my Kn(F) to Kn(X) and El(O) or El(S) because it is more propper for Antiochus and his fight against Romans.
I would recommend against it. Kn (X) are good against infantry, but count as Kn (I) when fighting other Kn. The additional cost of upgrading your Kn (F) to Kn (X) and your Ele (O) to Ele (S) will cost you other useful elements.
I hope I will be able to collect a Roman army to face my Seleucids. I was always keen on wars between roman empire and Alexanders' Diadochi.
Well, that is a good reason to take a later Seleucid army... :-)
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I suspect you might end up with 0-1 Kn(F) wedge, 0-1 Kn(F) or (X) and the rest as Kn(X).
Do I have to update all Kn to X or is it optional?
The 0-1 Companions do not upgrade to Kn (X). The 0-1 Agema may upgrade to Kn (X). The 2-7 Line Knights must upgrade to Kn (X). 0-2 generals may upgrade.
Of course, this is all what is spelled out in the DBM list book. No one knows how much the list may change when it is published for DBMM.
and have fewer elephants all as (S)
Still max 3 elephants.
But now getting very expensive.
On the other hand, drop those two bolt shooters, and that frees up a lot of the points you need...
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Thx. They seems to be useful enough :P
I can drop those bolt shooters but I like the idea of having some artillery. Anyway. Let's assume that I will drop them. What should I buy for the points spared? Or should I pay for the updrades with the bolt shooters?
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The usefulness of the bolt-shooters depends on your style of play. If you are defensive or like to sit with a phalanx waiting for the enemy, they can be quite useful. If you are an agressive player and are zooming your phalanx around the battlefield, they won't be much use probably.
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:) true :P
I will drop them to get few extra points for upgrades but I will paint the elements to use them in first few games.
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Ok. Few updates and the list is ready:
1 Antiochus III the Great Reg Kn(X) CinC br
5 Catafracts Reg Kn(X)
2 Elephants Irr El(S)
3 Skythians Irr Lh(F)
1 Sub-general Reg Pk(S) SG
7 Argyraspids Reg Pk(S)
12 Phalanx Reg Pk(O)
6 Asiatic slingers Irr Ps(O)
1 Sub-general Reg Kn(F) SG
2 Tarantines Reg Lh(O)
3 Galatian cavalry Irr Cv(O)
6 Thureophoroi and thorakitai Reg Ax(S)
4 Kappadokian Irr Ps(S)
Total: 400 AP
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Draft version of the Seleucid list is now available on the DBMM List, if you want to see the shape of things to come. Early seleucid are now 1-8 El(O)!!!
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I am not sure if my list is still an early period...
1 - 8 elephants? What a herd!
Where can I find the list?
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You can find the list at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist. In the files section.
LES.
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Funny thing with the new elephants. The rulesbook gives Seleucid elephants as an expample for El(S) and no El(S) in the list :)
Another change important to me is the galatian Cv limits.
We will see what changes the new book 2 will provide.
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Bear in mind this is only the first draft. LES.
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I do.