DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: DaveMather on June 30, 2008, 12:57:38 PM
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One issue that arose at Rampage last weekend was regarding feigned flight
Player 1 announces a feigned flight and carries it out
Player 2 reacts to it in his bound but at the end of his bound he also initiates a feigned flight - the troops that reacted (were held or went sponno) to the feigned flight now flee themselves .
From a rules perspective this seems Ok but historical?
There was an arguement that the only response is hold or go impetuous so you cant initiate a feigned flight but this was ruled against.
Comments/thoughts
Regards
David Mather
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My thought would be that your opponent cannot undertake a feigned flight until he successfully halts all those troops who went impetuous and spontaneously moved as a result of your feigned flight.
So, he cannot feign flight in his bound after you initiate the feigned flight in your bound as he has to halt those troops spontaneously moving forward towards you.
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Fair comment but is that substantiated anywhere in the rules
He made necessary halts and subsequent sponno moves in response to player 1s feigned flight
Then he spent his 3 PIPs that he held back to trigger his own feigned flight
So troops from that command that had been halted or had gone sponno now fled as per feigned flight
It was a surprising counter and there were many shouts of foul- but seems to be perfectly valid from a rules perspective (unless someone can prove otherwise)
Regards
David Mather
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Seems fine to me - I can imagine one lot running back thinking "This'll sucker them..."....then they see the other lot running away and thing "yippee...it worked - lets go get 'em boys..."
I won't vouch to it ever having happened, but it dosen't seem unreasonable & it requires a particular set of circumstances to occur in terms of enough PIPs, both having the FF stratagem, etc. so shouldn't be common.
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I could see it happening if say you feigned flighted on your right wing, and then your opponent feigned flighted on his right wing. That way you would have your right wing running and him pursuing, and on your left you would be pursuing whilst he is running. The difficulty I perceive is if you both feign flight in your repective center's.
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Someone sent me the following off list -
Reading of the rules is below,
On page 28 there is a para about halts.
"Halts are voluntary temporary cessations of movement expending pips used to prevent spontaneous advances,routs or naval drifting. No element can both halt and move in the same bound. A halt is not a move."
For me the problem with that is that would mean any troops that were halted could never make a feigned flight -
Regards
David Mather
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But, as a feigned flight is a 'flee outcome', it would not matter if you had halted or moved as flee moves are outcomes and not 'made' moves?
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I would agree with that
Looks like it is perfectly feasible - as Mike says it will not happen very often given the circumstances required and/or the advantage to be gained.
Regards
David Mather
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Sorry guys I'm not sure I agree. Under feigned flight it says Flee outcome move. Whilst it may be a flee outcome, it is still a move. So my reading of this as it is written, is that you halt or move. Not halt, then declare a feigned flight then move. Whilst I agree that its occurence may be rare. Feigned flight never the less is from what I have seen one of the most used strategems
cheers
Jim
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By that argument you could then Halt some elements in a command then then declare a feigned flight and only the rest of the command would flee away. The enemy would then go hareing after the fleeing elements, setting you up to hit them with the ones that you held.
It strikes me this could open the door to a lot of cheese.
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Page 41- Fleeing Elements, makes things a lot clearer.
You can indeed make any kind of move, halt etc before declaring a Feigned Flight as Feigned Flights are considered flee outcome moves and not moves requiring pips.
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I agree with your following statement Valentinian Victor said
"My thought would be that your opponent cannot undertake a feigned flight until he successfully halts all those troops who went impetuous and spontaneously moved as a result of your feigned flight.
So, he cannot feign flight in his bound after you initiate the feigned flight in your bound as he has to halt those troops spontaneously moving forward towards you."
So I'm not sure if we are at cross - purposes here or you have changed your mind and now think that you can Feigned flight in the same bound as you have halted your troops in response to a Feigned flight to stop them going impeteous.
Toby, what would you suggest then. Can you or can you not Feigned flight a command which has halted some elements to stop them going after a fleeing enemy command who has just used Feigned flight.
FWIW It does not seem quite right that you can and for me that was the cheese.
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Having looked at all the movement rules, and at Feigned Flight and Page 41, I have come to the conclusion that you can institute a feigned flight even if you have made tactical, march or spontaneous moves. This is on the basis that feigned flights are flee outcomes, which always take place as the last action of a bound and are not conditional on troops having moved before hand.
For example- You can move into combat using a full tactical move, be beaten and having then to flee if your a certain troop type. All a feigned flight allows you to do is to flee without having had a combat or flank attack/march outcome etc.
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So does that also mean that troops that have spontaneously advanced after feigned flight fleeing troops can themselves Feigned flight and then flee.
I'm still not squaring that circle
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Ridiculous as it might seem, it would appear so. I don't like that idea much either, but that's the rules it would seem.
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Another question concerning Feigned Flight. 'Next bound, all enemy less than 400p from elements feigning flight must make a spontaneous advance unless halted or train'. Does this mean that all enemy elements less than 400p from your elements in feigned flight have to follow your elements in spontaneous advance unless they have pips spent to halt them? If so, can they be halted only as individual elements and not as groups?
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Another question concerning Feigned Flight. 'Next bound, all enemy less than 400p from elements feigning flight must make a spontaneous advance unless halted or train'. Does this mean that all enemy elements less than 400p from your elements in feigned flight have to follow your elements in spontaneous advance unless they have pips spent to halt them?
Yes. What else might it mean? (I'm genuinely puzzled.)
If so, can they be halted only as individual elements and not as groups?
No, as far as I can see they can be halted as groups. See "PIP Expenditure" on page 27:1 PIP is expended for...Each halt by...a group including impetuous troops.
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I know it sounded a bit dumbo'ish, but the way things are going with rule interpretations these days...
Anyhow, I should have noted what it said on page 31, under 'Halts', doh!
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Another point that was raised on the Yahoo DBMM site which needs clarification- Does a Feigned Flight have any effect what-so-ever on an army commanded by an Inert C-in-C?
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Yes it does.
Feigned flight has 2 effects relevant to the question:
1/ Page 15 says that troops subject to it must make a spontaneous advance or be halted - note there is no mention of impetuosity here.
2/ Page 30 says that troops subject to FF become impetuous.
Impetuosity is normally a reason to make a spontaneous advance, but not if you're commanded by an inert general, so there is no need to make a SA due to being impetuous..
However being commanded by an inert general has no effect on the rule on page 15 - so you still have to make a spontaneous advance because of that rule.
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Page 30 clarifies what, and by whom, Spontaneous moves are. This section is the main offender-
'Such troops are impetuous on land until broken or the cause ceases;
and until then will advance, automatically renew combat or chase
broken enemy unless controlled. They are:
. Any troops (except train) that are aware of broken or shattered
enemy closer than 400p, or aware of an enemy feigned flight closer
than 400p and have not been halted, or would contact enemy Baggage'
'Impetuous troops must make a spontaneous advance as either
individual
elements or a column unless:
. Their C-in-C or command's generals/was inert, or is an uncommitted
unreliable ally'
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Yes - so having an inert general means they do not have to make a spontaneous advance for being impetuous.
however it has no effect on needing to maek a spontaneous advance from feigned flight -
Next bound, all enemy less than 400p from elements feigning flight must make a spontaneous advance unless halted or train.
there it is - a bland statement that you have to make a spono advance unless halted - this is completely independant of any requirement to make a spono advance (or not) due to being impetuous.
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if it where true, that troops halted could not do a feigned flight outcome move, they too would be unable to do any other outcome move (repulse) which does not seem to make sense.
The "can not do halts and moves in the same bound" is a strange rule, as I do not see any aplication for that rule on the table, still, it does not seem to aply on outcome moves, but only on voluntary moves...
Tilman