DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: LawrenceG on January 26, 2009, 07:32:13 PM
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If I have a column consisting of a LH(F) at the front and an Art(S) behind it, what speed does it move ?
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:) Hello again Lawrence,
Of the cuff and showing my ignorence once more I would say that the column moves at the speed of Art(S) for the cost of 2 pips per move no matter how many moves it makes in the bound.
I am of course probably very wrong.
I also note that if it was Art(F) wit the Lh(F), it ( the column ) would move at Art(F) speed and cost 1 pip for the first move and 2 for any subsequent moves.
William
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Moves as Art(S) - "A group move cannot exceed the maximum move distance of its slowest element." - last para page 28.
As William noted it pays 2 PIPs per move - 1+1 for including train
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What about two LH(F) in column, in difficult going, the front one will end out of the difficult but the second one will still be in it if they move at good going speed. What speed do they move?
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All groups move at the speed of the slowest element - what's the slowest element?
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What about two LH(F) in column, in difficult going, the front one will end out of the difficult but the second one will still be in it if they move at good going speed. What speed do they move?
160 paces. If the GGo move would result in any elements of the group still in the DGo, then it is the DGo move. If you can get the entire group out of the DGo with your GGo move, then you can use the GGo move. Note the F grading makes no difference to mounted movement distance when part of the move is in DGo.
Interesting observation : I just noticed the extra movement for F grading doesn't apply to moves on roads....hmmmm, must remember that.....
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How about:
2 LH in column in DGo (difficult going).
The front LH is on a road, facing along the road.
However, the road turns a corner behind the front LH, so the second LH is not on the road.
The move will be a march.
If they move at road march speed, both elements will end out of the DGo, otherwise at least will end inthe DGo.
The way I think this works, the rear LH is not moving entirely along the road, so the column moves at DGo speed. Is that right?
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The way I think this works, the rear LH is not moving entirely along the road, so the column moves at DGo speed. Is that right?
It is, IMHO.
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Now consider the same column. This time it has moved along the road to get to the corner. The front element has wheeled around the corner to reach the postion identical to the example above. The second element has not yet wheeled, so it is not lined up behind the front element, but is on the road.
How far can this column move?
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How about:
2 LH in column in DGo (difficult going).
The front LH is on a road, facing along the road.
However, the road turns a corner behind the front LH, so the second LH is not on the road.
The move will be a march.
If they move at road march speed, both elements will end out of the DGo, otherwise at least will end inthe DGo.
The way I think this works, the rear LH is not moving entirely along the road, so the column moves at DGo speed. Is that right?
This depends. I have seen differing interpretations of 'marching entirely along a road' based on the previous sentence which says 'groups front corners' - some take this to mean that if both the groups front corners are on the road then the move is the road speed, others interpret it as landmesiter has, that the entire group is not on the road so it doesn't move at the road speed. But I tend to take the more conservative viewpoint that the road move is not used.
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Now consider the same column. This time it has moved along the road to get to the corner. The front element has wheeled around the corner to reach the postion identical to the example above. The second element has not yet wheeled, so it is not lined up behind the front element, but is on the road.
How far can this column move?
Anything up to and including 640 paces and if it is the groups first move this bound then it costs zero PIPs, irrespective of the distance moved. If it is a march move entirely along the road (and in this case the entire group is on the road so no questions there) then the maximum movement distance is that on the road, regardless of whether or not you clear the DGo - the DGo is irrelevant for march moves on roads.
Note the kinked column is still treated as a column and you only measure the move distance for the lead element of the column. In any case, movement along a road must be in a column so you could only have ended up as a kinked column on a road (by definition), by already being in a column. No other formation is allowed on a road if you wish to claim the 'road movement' speed.
Andrew
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But isn't the second element treated as if lined up behind the first, which would make the situation identical to the previous example in which the group could only move at DGo speed ?
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Only if you choose to follow that particular illogical interpretation.
It should be no great problem to decide that all teh elements move at eth speed fo the front element - as written in the para about columns on page 29 - so eth front element moves it's full speed and all the following elements in the column then move the same distance.
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But isn't the second element treated as if lined up behind the first, which would make the situation identical to the previous example in which the group could only move at DGo speed ?
I didn't see the two examples as being the same unless I have misunderstood something. In the first the 2nd element was in a column but off the road, in the latter the 2nd element was in a column but on the road.
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You need to read this to understand what he's talking about - http://dbmm.org.uk/forums/index.php?topic=430.0
IMO he's wrong.
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Only if you choose to follow that particular illogical interpretation.
It should be no great problem to decide that all teh elements move at eth speed fo the front element - as written in the para about columns on page 29 - so eth front element moves it's full speed and all the following elements in the column then move the same distance.
So if I have a column of 1 LH(F) at the front and 1 Art(S) behind, in good going, how far can it move?
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Hi Lawrence
What's up with the questions? Are you trying to show/find/prove an inconsistency? Or is there something you have found that you are waiting for the rest of us to deduce? I'm not quite following the line of questions.
Regards
Andrew
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So if I have a column of 1 LH(F) at the front and 1 Art(S) behind, in good going, how far can it move?
Hi Lawrence
What's up with the questions? Are you trying to show/find/prove an inconsistency? Or is there something you have found that you are waiting for the rest of us to deduce? I'm not quite following the line of questions.
Regards
Andrew
Ok out of boredom I'll bite, the column of Lh(F) at the front and Art(S) behind moves at 80 Paces ( a base width ) as it is the slowest member of the group for a cost of 2 pips. If all of the column is entirly on a road to start with and outside 400 paces of any non skirmishing element ( except for complicated marches to flank or rear ) it moves at 240 paces, no matter how the road twists and turns the column still counts as a column and you measure from the front corners of the column as the crow flies ( which I hate ).
Bear in mind if you use the road march move with this column but end up on the ( or any different ) road in difficult going and within 400 paces of known non skirmishing enemy ( apart from that messey to rear and march flank moves ), the Art(S) is stuck there ( as would be any Art ) till the enemy is no longer stoppong march movement.
not trying to be condescending but would like to see where this is going
??? William
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I think I can see where this is heading......
A straight column where the road is bent leaving the 2nd element off the road, versus a bent column on a road in DGo where the column bends around the road. Are you wanting to say that in the 2nd instance, the 2nd element is treated as if lined up behind that in front and by implication is in the DGo?
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:) Of course forgot to mention that the first march move for this group entirely a long he road would cost 1 pip ( as I think no pip is 0 pip ).
And that if the Art(S) marches to within tactical distance of the non skirmishing enemy and ends up on the road which is superimposed on difficult terrian,it could move if it can leave the terrian with it's tactically move range is enough to leave the difficult terrian.
William
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I think I can see where this is heading......
A straight column where the road is bent leaving the 2nd element off the road, versus a bent column on a road in DGo where the column bends around the road. Are you wanting to say that in the 2nd instance, the 2nd element is treated as if lined up behind that in front and by implication is in the DGo?
Yes.
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Right. I take your point but I don't agree with the interpretation in this instance.....
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:) Of course forgot to mention that the first march move for this group entirely a long he road would cost 1 pip ( as I think no pip is 0 pip ).
William
[it] Zero Pips. The first march down the road costs 0 and the penalty for moving train only applies to "a move requiring PiPs".
Cheers,
Ivan.
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;) Excellant
:) Of course forgot to mention that the first march move for this group entirely a long he road would cost 1 pip ( as I think no pip is 0 pip ).
William
[it] Zero Pips. The first march down the road costs 0 and the penalty for moving train only applies to "a move requiring PiPs".
Cheers,
Ivan.
Well done that man
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Well it looks like the can of worms, alluded to by Lawrence, has now been opened. It appears popular opinion is that elements are being treated as if directly lined up behind for the purposes of not paying an irregular ineptness penalty despite the wording on page 27 stating "Any element moves other than straight ahead, unless along a road, river or terrain feature edge." Popular opinion has extended the 3 stated exemptions to now include columns.
What is the implication of this? How will this be selectively applied? Lawrence brought up an example earlier in this post, but it might now be worth exploring other potential fish-hooks.
These are from my post on the Yahoo group (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/87975). Consider then the impact on the following:
1) attacking the kink of a column; {addressed in another thread}
2) ending moves completely in GGo but near DGo (are the rear elements in or out of the DGo if there is a kink pointing back to the DGo?);
3) ending moves partially in DGo with a kink outside the DGo (are the rear elements in or out of the DGo?);
4) attacking the elements in a column behind the kink where it could be deemed such elements were in going other than that of the lead element of the column;
5) attacking elements in a column behind the kink where they are in going other than that of the lead element of the column;
6) reconsider questions 3, 4, 5 & 6 with a view to thin pieces of terrain such as boundaries and gullies where the rear of the column could pass right through that terrain and the elements could be deemed to be either in the terrain or on the other side of it;
7) does the first element after the kink exert a TZ ahead of himself, or is it assumed to be directly behind the element in front? {this was discussed in another thread}
8 ) recoiling columns (I believe this was the original intent);
9) rear supports (ditto); and
10) zones of death (does an element kinked exactly 90 degrees behind the lead element die in the zone of the death if the zone of death rules apply?)
Also, if the head of a column leaves difficult terrain and ends his move kinked on a road (facing down the road) but the rear of the column is still in the DGo - is the rest of the column now deemed to be on the road? Or is it still in the DGo?
Lets say there is a column of Spears where the lead element has turned through 90 degrees, and the opponent attacks the leading Spear element with a double overlap. Does the Spear get rear support? Given the attacker double over-lapped the lead element, is the 2nd element of Spear (still facing 90 degrees to the lead element) in the TZ of one of the over-lappers or not?
The examples provided above (and Lawrence's previous posts) are no less absurd than the current popular opinion regarding irregular ineptness penalty exemption.
Andrew
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You missed out a column moving along a table edge, then turning in towards the centre. All following elements are treated as off-table, so are lost.
My personal opinion (which removes all absurdities) is that the element behind a kink is where it is. "Treated as lined up behind" does not mean it is treated as physically in that position. It means it is subject to the effects which normally only apply to an element lined up behind another one. THese are (as far as I can recall):
Give rear support in close combat
Aid shooting from behind
Not blocking a recoil
Zone of death
IMO it does not include the movement of inept kinked columns. However, this rule was in early versions of DBM, but it was changed so that if the only elements deviating from straight ahead were following another element in a column, then there was no pip penalty. If the lead element deviated there was still a penalty. I don't know why this as not kept in DBMM: one would think that even the most inept troops would be able to follow the troops in front without much difficulty.
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You missed out a column moving along a table edge, then turning in towards the centre. All following elements are treated as off-table, so are lost.
Nice catch! I'm sure there are more absurd examples!
My personal opinion (which removes all absurdities) is that the element behind a kink is where it is. "Treated as lined up behind" does not mean it is treated as physically in that position. It means it is subject to the effects which normally only apply to an element lined up behind another one. THese are (as far as I can recall):
Give rear support in close combat
Aid shooting from behind
Not blocking a recoil
Zone of death
This was my understanding (along with the 'unbeatable formation' shouldn't be able to avoid contact) too, that until this popped up.
IMO it does not include the movement of inept kinked columns. However, this rule was in early versions of DBM, but it was changed so that if the only elements deviating from straight ahead were following another element in a column, then there was no pip penalty. If the lead element deviated there was still a penalty. I don't know why this as not kept in DBMM: one would think that even the most inept troops would be able to follow the troops in front without much difficulty.
Understood with the history and I agree with your opinion. The issue for me is the latest interpretation is not what the rules say on page 27.
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Yes there are problems - but alas the wording of the rule is quite specific and has no exceptions - so don't travel down a table edge and then turn your column in to the centre unless you can get all of it around the turn!! :o
Certainly there are good suggestions here as to how the rule could be better worded, and for possible inclusion in the commentary as to a more sensical version that could be adopted "by popular vote".