DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: william on February 13, 2009, 02:13:22 PM
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;D Another quickie
Arrival of flank marches, when does the flank march count as having arrived, when it's command rolls a 6 or when any elements of that command are first placed on the table ?
And following along, the first pips you have to spend on a flank marching command have to be to bring on any stragglers ( or any elements on your first PIP roll after the '6' ) but do you have to spend pips, IE can you keep troops off table ?
William
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:-[ Ok stragglers must be bought on if there is sufficent pips to bring them on, just shoot me ok.
William
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And have one less DBMM player??? We can't afford to lose any.......:)
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Especially a 2ME Cv(S).
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And have one less DBMM player??? We can't afford to lose any.......:)
Especially a 2ME Cv(S).
A Munster Cv(S) is only worth 1 Me ( we keep getting killed in the marshes )
William
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;D Besides my mistake about bringing on stragglers, let me give an example of what I am getting at.
Lately I have been playing with a Delayed command of either Irr Bg(I) or Irr Bg(F), now it can roll 5 or 6 to arrive for the first of my 4 bounds and 4 5 or 6 for the next 4 bounds, after which it counts as lost ( unarrived ). It could still arrive though.
In my last game my mounted had moved away from centre sector ( threatened by Knights ) and some Ax were marching in column through woods also in my centre sector, when of course the Train of sheep herds decided to arrive with a 6, so I bought the train on striaght away and hoped for the best.
But on ruminating about in the middle of the night, I seem to have developed the idea that I did not have to bring it on right away. If I did not spend the pips to move on table that turn then the Bg would be straggling from my next bound. If when I next roll pips for the train and I do not get 3 ( Bg(I)) I can not bring on train ( does it still count as not arrived ), if I do roll 3 4 5 can I elect just to bring 1 Bg element on now the command is definitly counting as arrived but the rest of the Bg is still save, if I roll a 6 then 2 elements at least must come on. Then ( if it is going this way ) I do not have to bring on any more Bg until I roll 3 or more for the train once more .
:-X The other thing that did occour to me was flank marching the train command ( very dodgy if it is driven back IE lost ), but seeing loads of troops to flee form the arrival of a sheep herd would by momentarily fun ( at least until they turn around and start looking for recipes for lamb chops ). Again if I successfully roll a 6 ( or 5 to 6 after 4 bounds ) it would then require a roll of least 3 for any to arrive ( and as I said they might not all have to arrive ).
Thats also why I asked when does a command count as having arrived when it rolls the necessary dice to arrive does it count as arrived in my next bound if nothing physically is placed on table.
:-[ Please tell me I am raving and need severe councilling or rehabilitation, where am I wrong in this.
William ( thy name is cheese )
There seems to be more to these off table train commands than meets the eye.
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;D Besides my mistake about bringing on stragglers, let me give an example of what I am getting at.
Lately I have been playing with a Delayed command of either Irr Bg(I) or Irr Bg(F), now it can roll 5 or 6 to arrive for the first of my 4 bounds and 4 5 or 6 for the next 4 bounds, after which it counts as lost ( unarrived ). It could still arrive though.
Yes. With you so far.
In my last game my mounted had moved away from centre sector ( threatened by Knights ) and some Ax were marching in column through woods also in my centre sector, when of course the Train of sheep herds decided to arrive with a 6, so I bought the train on striaght away and hoped for the best.
The Ax were enemy?
But on ruminating about in the middle of the night, I seem to have developed the idea that I did not have to bring it on right away. If I did not spend the pips to move on table that turn then the Bg would be straggling from my next bound.
Yes. The rules don't say anything about you having to bring on delayed/flank marching troops on the first bound they can do so.
If when I next roll pips for the train and I do not get 3 ( Bg(I)) I can not bring on train...
Yes.
...( does it still count as not arrived )...
Depends on what the relevance of arrival is.
...if I do roll 3 4 5 can I elect just to bring 1 Bg element on...
No. The rule about stragglers says "...other stragglers must arrive in the next bound in which their command's PIP score is sufficient for them to move clear of the edge." So if you roll 3 or more, you must bring all your baggage on.
...now the command is definitly counting as arrived but the rest of the Bg is still save, if I roll a 6 then 2 elements at least must come on. Then ( if it is going this way ) I do not have to bring on any more Bg until I roll 3 or more for the train once more .
No. It's possible to bring the baggage on as a group. Therefore, according to the rule I quoted above, you must do so if you get the necessary PIPs.
The only possible exception I can see to this is if the entire place of entry is covered by terrain which prevents you from doing group moves. But this is extremely unlikely.
So I can see you gaining a couple of bounds of grace, depending on the vagaries of the dice, but once the command's PIP dice is sufficient to bring on any baggage, you've got to bring the lot on. One of those tactics which is great in principle, and may often have its uses, but which it's dangerous to use without thinking whether it's appropriate.
:-X The other thing that did occour to me was flank marching the train command ( very dodgy if it is driven back IE lost ), but seeing loads of troops to flee form the arrival of a sheep herd would by momentarily fun ( at least until they turn around and start looking for recipes for lamb chops ). Again if I successfully roll a 6 ( or 5 to 6 after 4 bounds ) it would then require a roll of least 3 for any to arrive ( and as I said they might not all have to arrive ).
Remember, arrival surprise is only caused by elements which aren't straggling. If you flank march your baggage and then don't bring it on straight away, it's straggling...
Thats also why I asked when does a command count as having arrived when it rolls the necessary dice to arrive does it count as arrived in my next bound if nothing physically is placed on table.
What rule are you referring to in which the meaning of "arrival" matters?
:-[ Please tell me I am raving and need severe councilling or rehabilitation, where am I wrong in this.
Perfectly acceptable to push the rules to their logical limit in the search for bizarrities. If the people who are credited with having play-tested the rules had taken your attitude, we wouldn't have as many unclear, ambiguous or contradictory rules.
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;D The only reason for counting as arrived ( I think ) would relate to be considered lost if not arrived after eight of my bounds.
William
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;D The only reason for counting as arrived ( I think ) would relate to be considered lost if not arrived after eight of my bounds.
William
Ah, yes, that's a good one. And I don't have an answer. Personally, I think the elements should be on the table to count as not lost. But then how would you deal with commands which are only partly on the table because some elements are straggling?
Let's see what Michael and Lawrence have to say.
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Let's see what Michael and Lawrence have to say.
Well we are sure to get agreement between them. ;D
William
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IMO a command has arrived on the bound indicated by paragraphs 1 and 4 of the section ARRIVAL OF DELAYED AND FLANK MARCHING COMMANDS (i.e. the bound on which elements can actually enter the table). This applies whether any elements actually enter the table or not.
Winning and Losing refers to ME of commands that have failed to arrive. Therefore it is the ME of the whole command, not of the individual off-table elements.
Note that a non-arrived command is not lost, its ME are added to the ME lost from the rest of the army in order to determine if the side is defeated. A non-arrived command does not count for penalty points, for example.
I personally think the prohibition on leaving stragglers off was probably meant to apply on the bound of arrival, so you can't voluntarily let any elements become stragglers. THis is not absolutly clear in the rules, so author clarification would be appreciated.
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IMO the last sentence under "Stragglers" applies - "Stragglers cannot be kept off the battlefield if PIPs can be used to bring them on" - and this applies in the turn of arrival as well.
A more important consideration tho, remains when does a regular general count as being on teh table? Ie can he participate in the PIP allocation on hte turn of arrival or not?
And I think the answer is no - he can not.
The rule for regular PIP allocation says that a regular general "....not yet arrived from a flank or delayed march......dices independently." - and while the turn of arrival may be the turn he arrives in, he is not yet "arrived" until PIPs make him so - he could conceivably straggle.
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I agree with Mike re Stragglers and the Regular Generals off table situation - in fact
that is how I have always played it.
A bigger question is Regular Train commands off table who as far as I can see do
participate in regular command structure - the references refer to Generals off table
and lost rather than commands. So you could have your train safe off table and still
helping by being a pip dump - the down side is after 8 bounds they would count as lost.
Not sure if this is really what Phil intended.
Rich
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I agree with Mike re Stragglers and the Regular Generals off table situation - in fact
that is how I have always played it.
Looks as though we all agree then. And the commentary agrees on regular generals off-table.
A bigger question is Regular Train commands off table who as far as I can see do
participate in regular command structure - the references refer to Generals off table
and lost rather than commands. So you could have your train safe off table and still
helping by being a pip dump - the down side is after 8 bounds they would count as lost.
Not sure if this is really what Phil intended.
Rich
That sentence probably ought to be interpreted as:
However, a regular command not yet arrived from a flank or delayed march, or whose general is lost, or that has been broken, dices independently.
It is possible that Phil intended it as you describe - you still get the ME benefit to commands of irregular off-table army baggage for example. Note that non-arrived baggage does not count as lost, it is merely added to army losses when calculating defeat. This means in effect it only costs you 0.5 ME per element, you do not lose the corresponding 0.5 ME to each command that contributed. The cost-benefit trade off seems good enough to be cheesy, so it probably was not Phil's intention.
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Why on earth didn't some of us playtest :D
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;D Absolutly brilliant, I got Lawrence, Richard and Mike all agreeing with each other.
And now I am going to disagree, in relation to stragglers. Elements only become stragglers ( are straggling ) if they fail to show up on the bound of 'ARRIVAL, so they can not become stagglers until that bound is over. If they are not stragglers for the bound of ARRIVAL then they can be kept of the battle field if pips can be used to bring them on.
I do feel this is against the spirit of the rules however and could do with tightening up in some way.
It does seem I may have answered my own question of arrival.
And
Note that non-arrived baggage does not count as lost, it is merely added to army losses when calculating defeat. This means in effect it only costs you 0.5 ME per element, you do not lose the corresponding 0.5 ME to each command that contributed. The cost-benefit trade off seems good enough to be cheesy, so it probably was not Phil's intention.
I have to say sorry to Lawrence, I did not understand what you were saying before, all I can say is WOW of table train commands are getting better looking every day.
William ' the disagreeable'
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since stragglers do not arrive they have no bound of arrival until they do arrive! ;D
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And to show that evil ones do not prosper - William flank marched his baggage command last night and threw a 6 on his first turn...... He then threw a four for the arrival bound and had to bring it all on.....
Richard
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Poetic justice!! :D
a 2 would probably have been enough to make him bring it on as a single group.
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And to show that evil ones do not prosper - William flank marched his baggage command last night and threw a 6 on his first turn...... He then threw a four for the arrival bound and had to bring it all on.....
Richard
No he did not, the bold William flank marched using sheep herds Bg(I), the sheep excited about getting involved with the battle threw an early 6, next bound threw a 4 and decided ( as I think I can despite what the brains trust have stated here ) left them off table and straggling. The sheep could not be restrained however as they rolled a 4 for the next bound giving 1 move and a 6 the following bound ( if only the rest of the army got the same { to be fair I did ge 3 regular 6's at one point } ), leaving the sheep moving impresively towards a wood on Richard's side of the table ( but not entering it ).
Poetic justice!! :D
a 2 would probably have been enough to make him bring it on as a single group.
8) No I need a 3 ( plus one for moving train and having command of which the general does not exist ).
But flank marching baggage does not give one the same high as expendables.
;D William
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2...3...what's a PIP between friends!! :)
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2...3...what's a PIP between friends!! :)
;D A lot between myself and Richard, after about 6 years or more he is still teaching me how to wheel properly ( ;) it annoys him something rotten when I get it wrong ).
William
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;D A lot between myself and Richard, after about 6 years or more he is still teaching me how to wheel properly ( ;) it annoys him something rotten when I get it wrong ).
William
No, no your getting that wrong....... its not the wheeling that annoys me something rotten - its ? ;D