DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: Barritus on September 05, 2010, 03:13:16 PM
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I note in version 2 of the rules that Reg Sp (I) still count as 1 ME per element.
When did that change? Last time I paid attention to the draft rules, they'd been changed to 0.5 ME per element, the same as Irr Sp (I).
This makes Reg Sp (I) far too valuable in ME to risk, and makes armies based around them much harder to use - Etruscans, Syracusans and Trojan War Greeks come to mind.
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You are right, it was a change from the 1.1 draft. RSpI benefit of the same supports that Ordinary and Superior Sp have. Playtesting showed that at 1/2 ME they were too good.
My personal opinion is that they can be used as front line troops. They have the same combat proficiency versus QK enemy troops, and the slight disadvantage in combat is compensated by the low AP cost.
I would give a try to the armies you named before to dismiss them :)
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I agree with Lorenzo. At 1 ME they're pretty good value for the AP (far better than, say, Reg Bd (O)), at ? ME they were just too good.
But the big change isn't for armies like the Syracusans, where the Reg Sp (I) are the majority of the army - the total ME falls drastically, but the numbers of elements needed to be killed to dishearten or break a command don't change very much -, but for those like Medieval Germans with moderate numbers, where at ? ME the poor spearmen can be thrown into the fray with abandon (at +5 against most opponents they're pretty good at taking people with them when they die), whereas at 1 ME they have to be used more carefully.
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You are right, it was a change from the 1.1 draft. RSpI benefit of the same supports that Ordinary and Superior Sp have. Playtesting showed that at 1/2 ME they were too good.
My personal opinion is that they can be used as front line troops. They have the same combat proficiency versus QK enemy troops, and the slight disadvantage in combat is compensated by the low AP cost.
I would give a try to the armies you named before to dismiss them :)
Fair enough. I concede the point.
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I intend taking a wodge to Derby in a couple of weekend's time (Achaian Later Mycenaean). We shall see how they go.
FWIW, my experience to date is that I prefer the mass and "expendability" of Irr Sp(I), but Reg generals, Reg Sp(I) manouevreability, the ability to choose whether to pursue and only needing 1 PIP to turn a flank (if one materialises) does have its attractions.
A few weekends later will be the Guildford 1-dayer, to which I intend to take the Irr Sp(I) Trojans. It will be an interesting comparison.
Tim Child
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Well, back from Derby, and with 6 games using R Sp(I) under my belt now (2 practice games), I can say that they are better than in v1.0, but not a lot...
What are they good at?
- Filler (4AP per ME is not bad)
- Duffing up already damaged enemy
- Manoeuvre (being Regular, they can march, and turn flank for 1 PIP, etc.
What are they bad at?
- Surviving. Against anything that kills by doubling, they still go down like ninepins, and they do it at 1ME a time. I was shot to bits trying to get to grips with Bw(S)
- Manoeuvre - I know I listed this above, but in order to have enough Sp(I) to do stuff, you have to have so much that redeploying them can be tough
So, all in all the conclusion that I came to was that they are the target to offer the enemy, and while he's struggling to get at them through the scads of Ps in the Later Myc.s, hopefully I can do enough damage with the other bits and pieces (Cv(O), Bd(O), Wb(S)) that the Sp(I) can get in a sucker-punch at the end. It worked twice, and I came fourth, but the second game in particular (against Wb(F) Eastern Forest Americans was decided in a couple of dice throws and could have gone either way.
Tim Child
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After having seen many times RBdI in action i agree that reg I troops at 1ME are sometime a liability. It is true too that they perform almost as O troops being cheaper versus quick killing enemies. Btw in period Mynoian are quite good. In open pools I think I troops can be less effective.
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Taking on late mediaeval (S) troops with bronze-age (I) troops certainly proved sub-optimal on Sunday at Derby. ::)
But what was really sub-optimal was my play, not the troops themselves. :'(
Tim
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After having seen many times RBdI in action i agree that reg I troops at 1ME are sometime a liability.
I think Reg Sp (I) are considerably better value than Reg Bd (I). They're cheaper, and actually better against many opponents. They suffer against Wb and can't handle terrain, but that's about it on the minus front.
(I've said it before, but v2.0 was rather harsh on Bd.)
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In my opinion it very much depends on the opponent. I am seeing an increasing trend to later period armies (Kn & Bw(S) is very popular, especially if the Kn can dismount).
In most cases opponents have the quick kill on Sp, and with the new grading rules, Sp(I) is just as tough vs QK as (O), so could be seen as a bargain.
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In most cases opponents have the quick kill on Sp, and with the new grading rules, Sp(I) is just as tough vs QK as (O), so could be seen as a bargain.
You'd think Sp (I) would suffer horribly against Bw (S), but the one time I tried it on the battlefield, the result was what I guess you'd call a winning draw - the Reg Sp (I) and Reg Bw (S) lost equal numbers of elements, but the later are of course more expensive. Reg Sp (I) now getting the offensive +1 helps a lot as soon as you manage to make contact.
Phil has an unfortunate tendency to overreact when an imbalance is identified, and institute multiple fixes that together create the opposite imbalance. Sp were pretty weak in v1.0 - I think they're a bit too strong in v2.0.
(It occurs to me tangentially that impetuous Irr Sp (O) may be the thing to kill Tupi. Being impetuous you're going to get stuck in no matter how much they shoot up your formations. Bd (F) do QK you, but at 5(O):4(F) in your bound they're going to be dying a lot too.)
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My experience of Sp(I) vs Bw(any) is that you lose a lot of Sp(I) trying to make contact, and that's more so vs Bw(S) and hurts more when it's 1ME Reg Sp(I). The changes to (I) grading haven't affected the lethality of the (I) factor to shooting, because it's the doubling that gets you.
I'd agree about Irr Sp(O) vs Tupi. Massed Wb(O) might be even better, though. More casualties on the way in, but once they get there the words "hot knife" and "butter" spring to mind. :o)
Tim Child
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My experience of Sp(I) vs Bw(any) is that you lose a lot of Sp(I) trying to make contact
That's true, but once you're in contact you're likely to kill a lot of Bw. As long as you're not disheartened before contact I think you've got a decent chance.
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My experience of Sp(I) vs Bw(any) is that you lose a lot of Sp(I) trying to make contact
That's true, but once you're in contact you're likely to kill a lot of Bw. As long as you're not disheartened before contact I think you've got a decent chance.
Against Bw(S) you can expect to lose a quarter of your front rank for every bound of shooting.
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Yes - if you contact Bw in a line you will kill lots, but if you end up contacting piecemeal vs Bw(S) you will be in a world of pain. It's very easy to be doubled at 3(S) vs 4 - overlaps(I).
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Against Bw(S) you can expect to lose a quarter of your front rank for every bound of shooting.
Hmm, maybe I've just been unlucky. On this basis, lining up 4 deep Reg Sp(I) and charging the Bw(S) ought to be viable, shouldn't lose more than 1/4 of the Sp(I) (one rank) and with the extra ME from the general and the baggage the Sp(I) would still be in the game.
Ah well, something to try out again, but perhaps at the club rather than elsewhere.
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Yes - if you contact Bw in a line you will kill lots, but if you end up contacting piecemeal vs Bw(S) you will be in a world of pain. It's very easy to be doubled at 3(S) vs 4 - overlaps(I).
But with a Reg army (and Reg Sp(I) tend to be in a Reg-generaled army) you ought to have given the charging Sp(I) the high PIP dice if your plan is to walk them into enemy shooters, so hopefully you can overcome this problem?
Impetuous Irr Sp(O) (or Wb) will sort this issue out for you by themselves, of course. :)
Tim Child
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Against Bw(S) you can expect to lose a quarter of your front rank for every bound of shooting.
Hmm, maybe I've just been unlucky. On this basis, lining up 4 deep Reg Sp(I) and charging the Bw(S) ought to be viable, shouldn't lose more than 1/4 of the Sp(I) (one rank) and with the extra ME from the general and the baggage the Sp(I) would still be in the game.
Ah well, something to try out again, but perhaps at the club rather than elsewhere.
You can expect to lose additional elements in close combat - effectively the spear are +5 trying to double +4 (2 in 36) in their bound and the bows are +4 trying to double +3 (4 in 36) in their bound. Also the bows can shoot from overlap for another 25% chance of a kill.
Assuming a quarter lost on the way in and allowing 8 ME for general and baggage you only need to lose 3 more elements to be disheartened, at which point you are pretty much toast.