DBMM Forum

General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: landmeister on November 24, 2010, 11:05:46 AM

Title: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 24, 2010, 11:05:46 AM
Following my last thread dedicated to sponno directions, I've created a graph including all possible options. I'm not a programmer, so please don't be too harsh with it  ;D.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4MPL75SU (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4MPL75SU)

All opinions are welcome.

Thank you in advance
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 24, 2010, 11:35:42 AM
Box

?will it end closer to the previously closest visible enemy?

has two "yes" coming out of it. The bottom one should be "no".
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 12:27:53 PM
All opinions are welcome.

I suggest you reverse this question "...will it end closer to its side?s rear battlefield edge?" to say "...will it end further from its side?s rear battlefield edge?" as this is more in tune with the spirit of the rules in which the move straight ahead is the default option.

You could also streamline the design to make this more obvious: putting the default path down the left, or across the top, is the usual way to do it.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 01:21:37 PM
Couldn't resist:

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_IzHGhyIHYcA/TO0TKtY4fOI/AAAAAAAABb4/8c57tVLqlQw/s800/DBMMSpontaneousMoves.png)

I think this is the basic logic with all the decision points identified.  If correct it's easy enough to add the bullet text for you.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 24, 2010, 01:29:11 PM
All opinions are welcome.

I suggest you reverse this question "...will it end closer to its side?s rear battlefield edge?" to say "...will it end further from its side?s rear battlefield edge?" as this is more in tune with the spirit of the rules in which the move straight ahead is the default option.

IF you do that you change the outcome when the move will end the same distance from its side's rear battlefield edge.

Hence your version of the flowchart gives the wrong answer when the sponno troops are facing exactly across the table (the usual situation if they have come on as a flank march). The layout of your chart looks better though.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 01:38:27 PM
IF you do that you change the outcome when the move will end the same distance from its side's rear battlefield edge.

Que?  If the straight ahead a move is across the table it ends up the same distance from both table rear edges by definition.  Reversing the question changes nothing.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 24, 2010, 01:41:15 PM
I think this is the basic logic with all the decision points identified.  If correct it's easy enough to add the bullet text for you.

THIS IS a true graph.  :o Impressive. Thank you very much.  ;)
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 24, 2010, 01:49:08 PM
I noticed a wrong result (my fault, not Martin's). If I select:

End closer to visible enemy ---> Select either option ---> Consider bullet points ----> No-----> Remain in place

...the other option is not considered, so a player could choose not to move because no bullet is eligible while it could go straight ahead.  :-\

I think "Select either option" should be modified by "Select one eligible option". If both options are "no" then the element remain inplace, as is intended in the rules. Would it be enough?  ???
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
I noticed a wrong result (my fault, not Martin's). If I select:

End closer to visible enemy ---> Select either option ---> Consider bullet points ----> No-----> Remain in place

...the other option is not considered, so a player could choose not to move because no bullet is eligible while it could go straight ahead.  :-\
I think this fixes this but creates another problem:

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_IzHGhyIHYcA/TO0diEDgpfI/AAAAAAAABcI/uU3cymZ2KSo/s800/DBMMSpontaneousMoves-002.png)
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 24, 2010, 02:55:00 PM
IF you do that you change the outcome when the move will end the same distance from its side's rear battlefield edge.

Que?  If the straight ahead a move is across the table it ends up the same distance from both table rear edges by definition.  Reversing the question changes nothing.

If the move will end the same distance from the enemy edge then:

"End closer to opponent's rear edge?" = NO, takes you to "consider bullet points".

"End closer to own rear edge" = NO, takes you to "contact enemy directly in front?" which is where it should take you.

The underlying reason why it changes something is because this is not the logically reverse question. That would be "End no closer to own rear edge?", or equivalently "End closer to, or same distance from, enemy rear edge?".

IMO the truth table approach I used on the other thread is probably more user-friendly. The aim is to make more ergonomic the practice of getting the result, not to expose the underlying complexity of the process.

Quote
If straight ahead:

would contact enemy in front or    
end closer to closest enemy
would go closer to    
own table edge
straight ahead is     bullets are
yesyespermitted only if matching a bullet,      
otherwise forbidden
permitted
yesnocompusoryforbidden
noyesforbiddencompuslory
nonopermittedpermitted

A move must be made if any is possible.
If all compusory or permitted options are impossible, remain in place and count as having moved.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 03:56:54 PM
That would be "End no closer to own rear edge?", or equivalently "End closer to, or same distance from, enemy rear edge?".

Will change to former but the double negative is very poor style so will have to think about this.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 24, 2010, 04:11:58 PM
That would be "End no closer to own rear edge?", or equivalently "End closer to, or same distance from, enemy rear edge?".

Will change to former but the double negative is very poor style so will have to think about this.

Why not just put the positive question

"End closer to own table edge?"

and swap the "yes" and "no" round?
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 05:01:24 PM
Latest version:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_IzHGhyIHYcA/TO1IGVrxh5I/AAAAAAAABcQ/zddalHOY_Zk/s800/DBMMSpontaneousMoves-003.png)
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: foxgom on November 24, 2010, 05:44:30 PM
Hi

am a physicist and appreciate and can work with flow charts.

The use if them in DBMM makes me think the rules must be complicated.

To me they create a bad impression on any newcomer.

I find the rules quite intuitive.

The text does sometimes have to be read twice (or even three times  ;)), but try writing an exact set of instructions about how to make a cup of coffee !


Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 05:49:48 PM
The use if them in DBMM makes me think the rules must be complicated.

Possibly you're confusing the rules text with the implicit, or underlying, logic?
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 05:53:30 PM
I think there may be an error in the latest version.  Can you spot it?
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 24, 2010, 06:53:41 PM
The use if them in DBMM makes me think the rules must be complicated.

It depends on what you consider complicated.  ;D I would say complex instead of complicated  ;)

To me they create a bad impression on any newcomer.

I agree, but I created it more to understant the whole process better than to show it to beginners. Certainly I wouldn't show it to a newcomer the first day. I would wait for some days... ;D IMHO, charts like this are very useful once you're trying to take the game in depth, as is my case.  ::)
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 24, 2010, 07:00:16 PM
I think there may be an error in the latest version.  Can you spot it?

Apparently, it's correct right now. I can't see any error, but I'll check it in detail.

BTW, I read in your blog that you definitely left DBMM. A real pity, your help in this case is extremely appreciated. ;) Thank you Martin.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 24, 2010, 09:22:01 PM
BTW, I read in your blog that you definitely left DBMM.

I have but I saw your efforts and decided to help a friend.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 25, 2010, 08:53:45 AM
Update with aligned logic:

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_IzHGhyIHYcA/TO4oonEr-0I/AAAAAAAABcg/Nn49HShYToo/s800/DBMMSpontaneousMoves-005.png)
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 25, 2010, 09:23:47 AM
Great! Thank you.

Just curiosity, what is "aligned logic"?
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 25, 2010, 10:04:16 AM
Just curiosity, what is "aligned logic"?

All the "Yes" answers move you down and all "No" answers move you to the right.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 25, 2010, 11:54:29 AM
All the "Yes" answers move you down and all "No" answers move you to the right.

I see. Thanks.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 02:06:39 PM
I'm going to post this on my blog, before I do is everyone happy that the last version is correct?  Lawrence?
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 26, 2010, 02:41:22 PM
I'm going to post this on my blog, before I do is everyone happy that the last version is correct?  Lawrence?

The logic looks correct although I would be tempted to swap the "end closer to enemy rear edge" with "move parallel to rear edge". That way the most common situation is a straight path down the page.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 03:26:37 PM
The logic looks correct although I would be tempted to swap the "end closer to enemy rear edge" with "move parallel to rear edge". That way the most common situation is a straight path down the page.

OK.  Will do.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 03:43:53 PM
I also have some diagrams that I'd like to post - http://bit.ly/fdjA1y - anyone spot anything wrong with them?

Before you ask the diagrams were done before v2.0 was finalised and have been lying around ever since.  I thought I may as well publish them at the same time as the flow chart.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 26, 2010, 04:49:04 PM
I also have some diagrams that I'd like to post - http://bit.ly/fdjA1y - anyone spot anything wrong with them?

Before you ask the diagrams were done before v2.0 was finalised and have been lying around ever since.  I thought I may as well publish them at the same time as the flow chart.

example 1 OK
2nd example, [3] is illegal, must move as a column if possible.
example 3 OK
example 4 [3] is the only legal move, as you can see from your flow chart (straight ahead ends closer to enemy, so bullets not considered)
example 5 OK
example 6 OK
example 7 OK but [3] illegal also because straight ahead takes precedence. Therefore it would still be illegal if X started further back along the same path, where it was fully behind the extended rear edge.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 05:23:21 PM
Wow 5 out of 7 OK!  

I see what you mean about #2 and #3 - the flowchart was useful after all.  As for #7 you make an interesting point - I will change the text.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 05:56:36 PM
As I was editing #7 in the original document I realised that I'd already reached the same conclusion but never uploaded a newer version.  The final version on my PC also has examples #8 & #9 and example numbers.

Try this version - http://bit.ly/h0Nxp4
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 26, 2010, 06:31:53 PM
As I was editing #7 in the original document I realised that I'd already reached the same conclusion but never uploaded a newer version.  The final version on my PC also has examples #8 & #9 and example numbers.

Try this version - http://bit.ly/h0Nxp4

8 and 9 look OK.

I'd be tempted to add #10 for completeness in which a column sponnos straight ahead onto a corner and stops there as it has no need to EMTLU (therefore can't EMTLU).
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 07:06:07 PM
8 and 9 look OK.
Thanks.

I'd be tempted to add #10 for completeness in which a column sponnos straight ahead onto a corner and stops there as it has no need to EMTLU (therefore can't EMTLU).
Life's too short - don't forget I'm a FOG player now.  :)
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 26, 2010, 07:09:08 PM
2nd example, [3] is illegal, must move as a column if possible.
It occurred to be that a halt is also legal in #2.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: LawrenceG on November 26, 2010, 10:33:03 PM
2nd example, [3] is illegal, must move as a column if possible.
It occurred to be that a halt is also legal in #2.
Yes, I believe so.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: vexillia on November 27, 2010, 09:39:29 AM
Thanks for the help guys.  The final versions are now online at http://bit.ly/efwvGL.

To tidy things up I've also removed the targets of the earlier links to all the working docs posted below.
Title: Re: Beta graph for sponno moves
Post by: landmeister on November 27, 2010, 02:02:19 PM
Excellent work, Martin. Congrats.  ;)