Recent Posts

31

Competitions / Results of Stoertebeker Cup 2022

« Last post by Arnim on May 04, 2022, 08:40:46 AM »

Hello,

the Stoertebeker Cup has been fought last weekend. This is an event that requests Naval combat and there are prizes for best Admiral and for best General. The topic was rise & fall of Carthage .. but the Carthaginian player was ill. I went with ancient Spanish

Find reports from Thomas and from myself here: http://www.arnim.web.netic.de/tabletop/berichte/berichte.html
It's all in German language, so you have to run it through some translator (Google or ...)

Official results will be published on www.jannbengen.de

32

Rules Questions / Re: Passing through

« Last post by Marcel Bos on April 17, 2022, 10:14:07 PM »

You’re right.
Passing through defenitly needs explanation or a consencus.

I even looked now at the old rules DBM and DBMM v. 1.
One thing I learned from this is interpenetrating elements of a group can split.
But is wasn’t clear to me if this was valid for only non-impeteous troops.

Lets look at the current rules:

Elements making a spontaneous advance pass trough friends in their path… the following events occur: “Other non-impeteous troops---- recoil (see p. 40) as each successive element passes through.”

An element that will not clear the base of a friendly element or gate tower it passes through stops at that element
or tower's near edge if the move would end in contact with enemy and is not spontaneous. Otherwise, it is placed
immediately beyond the first such element or tower, friends previously there shifting in the direction moved to
make room. Any elements following it stop at the first friendly element's or tower's near edge.

In my opinion, if passing through:

An interpenetrating element moves its intended movement if it can pass all friendly (interpenetrated) elements with this movement.

But, the leading/first interpenetrating element, that can’t totally clear one or more interpenetrated friendly elements, must either stop before or beyond the nearest interpenetrated friendly element it can’t clear.
This nearest interpenetrated friendly element stays put.

If this interpenetrating element must stop beyond an interpenetrated element, friendly elements beyond the interpenetrated element make room by shifting in the direction moved.

If this interpenetrating element must stop before an interpenetrated element, there is no rule that other friendly elements make room by shifting in any direction whatsoever.
So this interpenetrating element must stop before interpenetrating any element!

So, in some cases an interpenetrating group will be split by an interpenetrated group, in which case the interpenetrated group isn’t split.

Of course, there is the matter of recoiling.
A recoil (p 40) is a base depth (max. a base width), not more, or a 180° turn, often not enough to make room.
If Phil wanted to hold together a spontaneous column, the last sentence should be (or something like that):
"Any non-sponteneous elements following it stop at the first friendly element’s or tower’s near edge, however any spontenous elements following it keeps in contact with the preceding spontaneous element, other friendly elements previously there shifting opposite to the direction moved to make room."

33

Rules Questions / Re: Passing through

« Last post by LawrenceG1 on April 13, 2022, 04:53:49 PM »

I think it is usual to move the lead spontaneous element to it's normal position, then treat the recoiling element as the one not  able to clear the base. If multiple sponno elements are moving, they stay as a column and all end up in their proper position; the recoiling elements are moved back far enough to clear all the bases.

To be honest, I think this practice is based more on what happened in DBM than on a detailed analysis of the DBMM rule wording. Might be a question for the commentary team to examine.

34

Rules Questions / Re: Passing through

« Last post by Marcel Bos on April 13, 2022, 09:23:15 AM »

Of course, it is always the intention (of Phil Barker) of the rules that matters.

So, in other words:
If a column is spontaneous the leading element is always placed ahead of the first element it can’t clear, pushing forward other friendly elements (or even back if itself or any forward pushed element is blocked by an enemy element or otherwise).
The other spontaneous elements follow directly behind the leading element, pushing back other friendly elements.

Good to know 

35

Rules Questions / Re: Passing through

« Last post by LawrenceG1 on April 12, 2022, 06:09:19 PM »

Phil Barker during DBMM development made it clear (in other contexts) that he doesn't want spontaneous columns to get split up.

36

Rules Questions / Re: Passing through

« Last post by Marcel Bos on April 11, 2022, 09:54:22 PM »

Thanks again Lawrence.

In both version, 2.0 and 2.1 rules these are the same.

First of all I think it is bad practice to voluntarily interpenetrate friendly troops if those troops can’t be totally cleared, but if this happens it is nice to know what to do 

In my opinion a normal recoil will take place for an element if passed through by impetuous friends regardless of any extra shifting forward (or back) to make room for any passing element that will not clear a base.

I like to think that a sponno column won’t end as a solid block, see the new example.

With a movement straight forward LH E and F would reach the positions as in figure K.
All Ax has to ‘recoil’ when LH E interpenetrates it, in this case instead they turn 180° (page 40).
As in figure L LH E must thereafter immediately placed beyond Ax A.

If LH F follows LH E immediately thereafter, Ax A has also a normal recoil, but LH F has still to stop at the near edge of Ax A, see figure M.

If LH F doesn’t follow LH E immediately thereafter, Ax A has not to recoil, and LH F has to stop at the near edge of Ax B, see figure N.

I feel more for figure M myself, but in both circumstances the outcome will be a mess.
This doesn’t look strange to me, when impetuous troops runs through an orderly formation.

But probably your interpretation is more playable 

37

Rules Questions / Re: Passing through

« Last post by LawrenceG1 on April 10, 2022, 06:27:36 PM »

These answers are based on the wording on p 32 of version 2.1, which is the one I have to hand. That is:

An element that will not clear the base of a friendly element or gate tower it passes through stops at that element
or tower's near edge if the move would end in contact with enemy and is not spontaneous. Otherwise, it is placed
immediately beyond the first such element or tower, friends previously there shifting in the direction moved to
make room. Any elements following it stop at the first friendly element's or tower's near edge.

Figure B I think is correct.

Figure C I think most players would move the sponno column as a solid block and the recoiling troops recoil as far as necessary for all of them to exit the rear of the column that moved. The assumption is that each Ax recoils out of the back of each LH after it passes through, but does not push back other LH as they would also be passing through the recoiling element.

E I'm not sure, but it seems a possible approach to take. Another possibility is Ax A and B get pushed forward so A ends in contact with enemy. However, the option I prefer is they stop behind the first auxilia they reach because they have to stop behind Ax A which they can't clear, which means they also can't clear Ax B so must stop behind it, which means they can't clear Ax C, and so on. It's only in the "Otherwise" sentence that there is provision to displace other troops .

F correct.

Note that in 2.1 non-spontaneous LH cannot pass through other troops, but I've assumed they can for the purposes of this question.

38

Rules Questions / Passing through

« Last post by Marcel Bos on April 10, 2022, 11:01:50 AM »

With a movement straight forward LH E and F would reach the positions as in figure A or D.

Figure B:
If both LH are not spontaneous LH E has to placed past Ax C pushing forward Ax A and B.
LH F has to be placed before Ax D.

Figure C:
If both LH are spontaneous Ax B, C and D have to recoil two times.
Placement of LH E will not be hindered.
LH F has to be placed before Ax B, pushing back Ax C and D.

Figure E:
If both LH are not spontaneous LH E has to placed before Ax A pushing back Ax B, C and D.
LH F has to be placed before Ax C, pushing back Ax D.

Figure F:
If both LH are spontaneous Ax B, C and D have to recoil two times.
Placement of LH E and F will not be hindered.

I am playing DBMM v. 2.0, page 32
Are mine assumptions correct?

39

Rules Questions / Re: Naval and disembarking

« Last post by Neil Williamson on January 17, 2022, 12:05:05 AM »

Thanks Anthony
That's a very pragmatic and logical approach to the situation where the rules are not clear.

It is also the position I'd always assumed before starting to overthink things.

It would be useful if the rules committee would endorse this.

Thank you again
Neil

40

Rules Questions / Re: Naval and disembarking

« Last post by Fon Tok Nak on January 16, 2022, 07:14:38 AM »

As I have two armies with significant numbers of naval elements, I have had similar ponderings.

In relation to generals, I think the question is one of command difficulty (p.27). If a general is on a naval vessel, is he 'on the battlefield'? I would say that he is. Even though his element is not on the table, his troops know where he is and can see his vessel. (Indeed, I have to have something that clearly identifies my general's vessel so that I know which one he is on!) For sure, the men on his vessel will know that he is with them.

Following from that, answering 'yes' to both questions 1 and 2 seems reasonable, especially 2.

I am not entirely sure that I understand question 3. Whether a naval element is regular or irregular is determined by the vessel's type, not how it's crew moves on land. A naval and its embarked element do not a group make, so I suspect this is a non-issue. (As an aside, some crews might be particularly adept at sailing but then poor at soldiering to the point that they only become available at all when the naval has already been taken, typically marines.)

The example of marines, while not proof, reinforces why the answers to questions 4 and 5 are 'no'. I don't know of a list that allows marines to be taken without the naval they crew. In some lists, the only troops that can go on the naval are marines - they must go together.

Finally, consider the parallel of mounted infantry and their mounts: would anybody allow mounted infantry to move on their mounts and then dismount and move again and not call that marching? Or anything mounted - for example, Kn move and dismount as BdS, then the BdS move. Was the BdS element part of the Kn move?

Anthony