Scots Common, Book 4, List 16

[Brian]

Hi There,
 I am well out of touch with 'MM' but as they seem to be about to hit the press I would be most interested in reading any comments on the Scots under 'MM'.

I have been using a 1457 AD list (with Highland & Isles Allies maxed  out) under DBM 3.1 rules.
I like the bow,blade,pike combo supported by the max Kn(I) & cartis of weire at about 100 EE.

My big moan was that Irreg. Pike (I) cost the same as Reg Pike (I).
Any change in 'MM' ?

Brian
Christcurch
New Zealand

[toby]

Nope - still the same price I'm afraid.

From memories of people discussing test battles on the DBMMList long ago, they were being absolutely slaughtered by the English bowmen, but S shooting factors have changed since then (at one point they were like machine guns) and that was felt to be a historical result anyway.

The Scots will preseumably get Hidden Obstacles now in their list, which you can secretly deploy in front of troops. They are shown when enemy cross them and they count as being in difficult going for the subsequent combat. I know the Marian Romans used them against Dave' Mather's Hittite Kn chariots in one of the test games and made a bit of a mess of the chariots.

The Irr Pk(I) and Irr Bw(I) will now only count as 0.5 ME (Morale Equivalent), while Kn will count as 2 ME (and a general as 4 ME), so you can afford to lose a lot more Pk and Bw before the command demoralises so long as the Kn are still intact. It encourages you to throw away the peasants but preserve the nobles!

Toby

[Doug M.]

I was one of those who made lots of noise about the interaction between Scots Pike and English (Welsh) Longbowmne, principally because other than on one occasion when the Scots stood and were shot down over an extended period, whenever they actually attacked they ALWAYS made contact. Something which couldn't be done (or was very unlikely) under DBMM when the Longbowmen were +2 for superior.

When they did make contact, in the earlier period dismounted MAA and later Billmen were then able to cope with disordered Pike fighting uphill.

In addition, no allowance was made for the terrain effects which were universal, ie English uphill, or mud, or a ravine getting in the way. Instead Phil seemed to be concerned to get the interaction so that even small numbers of Bw could shoot down masses of Pikemen even in the flat in the open.

I haven't replayed the interaction with only +1 but it seems to me it would give a much more realistic outcome.

regards

Doug M.

[Doug M.]

Oh, and I think there should be an option to upgrade Scots Pike in certain periods, (under Bruce and in the later periods in France and when they had been raised for a lengthy capaign) from irregular to regular. There is certainly evidence of different behaviour when they have the discipline to manouevre as at Bannockburn or mount rapid attacks as at later battles, as opposed to the primitive spearmen who stood under arrow storms in the earlier period.

regards

Doug

[tadamson]

The evidence we have for the armies in France is that they didn't have 'pikemen' (I hate that daft DBMisim).

[Aloysius the Gaul]

It's not a DBM-ism. 

The Company of Pikemen & Musketeers of the Honourable Artillery Company was re-formed in 1925 to act as a ceremonial body at Armoury House and within the City of London.

from http://www.hac.org.uk/html/about-the-hac/ceremonial/pikemen-musketeers/

 I'm pretty sure Phil was still in single-digit-years old then....if at all, so I don't think he coined the term and I suspect it dates to well before then too.......

[tadamson]

I mean calling lowland Scots spearmen 'pikemen', when they didn't have pikes, fought in fairly shallow formations etc....

Only DBM calls them pikemen.

[Aloysius the Gaul]

DBM doesn't "call" them pikemen - it grades them as that, but AFAIK they're called Scots Yeoman spearmen or somesuch.

[Caledini_UK]

I am quite sure the "Small Folk" are given 'False Reinforcement' status due to the effect they had towards the end of the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. However, in the rules 'False Reinforcements' can only be used with Baggage O. Unfortunately, Scots Common are only given access to Baggage O from 1488AD. Therefore, surely Baggage O should be made available from or in 1314?

[Orcoteuthis]

I am quite sure the "Small Folk" are given 'False Reinforcement' status due to the effect they had towards the end of the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. However, in the rules 'False Reinforcements' can only be used with Baggage O. Unfortunately, Scots Common are only given access to Baggage O from 1488AD. Therefore, surely Baggage O should be made available from or in 1314?

Yes, bug.

Really, just about all armies should be allowed Bge (O).