Bw (X) support

[landmeister]

By "non-compulsory" I assume you mean "not described as double based in the army list book" as there are some non-compulsory troop types that are double based if you take them, and some troops have the option to be different types and/or grades, including both single and double based options. 

Yes, sorry. I mean just that. I wanted to double base Bw(X) for convenience, but in another thread I was told that Bw(X) cannot be DBased woth Bw(X) behind, so problem disappeared 

Thank you

[LawrenceG]

Please, let me retake this topic again. What would happen with a non compulsory double base of Bw(X)? The front element would be aided by the second when shooting. But would the front one receive rear support in close combat? According to page 7:

If you mean 2 Bw(X) elements double based this is not allowed.As they can only be double based with Bw(O) or (S),also on page 7.
LES  

I wanted to double base Bw(X) for convenience, but in another thread I was told that Bw(X) cannot be DBased woth Bw(X) behind, so problem disappeared 

Thank you

IF you are referring to the quote above, my personal view is that the wording on p7 was to draw attention to the fact that there are two (functionally different) "kinds" of Bw(X)  (i.e. "required" double-bases with Bw(S) or (O) as the rear half, and single-bases with one row of mixed spearmen and bowmen) and not intended to prevent you double basing a pair of single-based Bw(X) for convenience. They would still fight the same as two single bases.

[LAP1964]

You might want to have look at, http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/132206
So if you DB Bw(X) you wouldN'T     get the rear rank aidding shooting.  
LES

[LawrenceG]

You might want to have look at, http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/132206
So if you DB Bw(X) you would get the rear rank aidding shooting. 
LES

As you would if they were single based.

[LAP1964]

DOH that should have been WOULDN'T get aid in shooting. 
LES

[LawrenceG]

DOH that should have been WOULDN'T get aid in shooting. 
LES

The DBMMlist message you referenced is in error.

Page 34, bullet 1, (a) says Bw(X) double based with Bw(X) WOULD get aid in shooting.

[LAP1964]

Page 34, bullet 1, (a) says Bw(X) double based with Bw(X) WOULD get aid in shooting.

Page 34 bullet 1,
 (b)"of any Bows that are required to be double-based behind Bows (X),can shoot over them."

So which list requires 2 elements of Bow (X) to be double-based?

LES

[LawrenceG]

Page 34, bullet 1, (a) says Bw(X) double based with Bw(X) WOULD get aid in shooting.

Page 34 bullet 1,
 (b)"of any Bows that are required to be double-based behind Bows (X),can shoot over them."

So which list requires 2 elements of Bow (X) to be double-based?

LES

None. But that is not the part that allows Bw(X) to shoot over Bw(X). Note also that it does not prevent anything shooting over Bw(X).

Page 34 bullet 1,
"(a) Bows or Shot lined up directly behind shooters of the same command with the same weapon and of the same grade ... can shoot over them. "

Bw(X) DB with Bw(X) would be lined up directly behind shooters of the same command with the same weapon and of the same grade, therefore they can shoot over them.

(b) allows Bows of a different grade, i.e. (s) or (O), to shoot over Bw(X) (only) if they are a required DB.

[LAP1964]

Page 34 bullet 1,
"(a) Bows or Shot lined up directly behind shooters of the same command with the same weapon and of the same grade ... can shoot over them. "

 :)I would say that is correct if you have 2  seperate elements of Bw(X),1 behind the other.

(b) allows Bows of a different grade, i.e. (s) or (O), to shoot over Bw(X) (only) if they are a required DB.

 :)As you say there is no list that requires 2 elements of Bw(X) to be DBed,so that would stop them aidding shooting!
(Also nowhere does it state the grade of bows DB with Bw(X),on page 34?)
But we can keep arguing to we are both blue in the face,as we don't know what PB intends untill he chimes in with a reply somewhere.

LES

[LawrenceG]

Page 34 bullet 1,
"(a) Bows or Shot lined up directly behind shooters of the same command with the same weapon and of the same grade ... can shoot over them. "

 :)I would say that is correct if you have 2  seperate elements of Bw(X),1 behind the other.

(b) allows Bows of a different grade, i.e. (s) or (O), to shoot over Bw(X) (only) if they are a required DB.

 :)As you say there is no list that requires 2 elements of Bw(X) to be DBed,so that would stop them aidding shooting!
(Also nowhere does it state the grade of bows DB with Bw(X),on page 34?)
But we can keep arguing to we are both blue in the face,as we don't know what PB intends untill he chimes in with a reply somewhere.

LES

1.
You appear to be saying that:

(a) implies Bw(O) DB with Bw(O) for convenience cannot aid their shooting.

Against that I would say that p13 tells you that a DB is treated as 2 elements except for certain exceptions, of which none is shooting. That is as true for Bw(X) as it is for Bw(O). You have already accepted that Bw(X) can shoot over Bw(X) if they are two elements, for the same reason that Bw(O) can shoot over Bw(O).


2.
(b) is "any Bows that are required to be double-based behind Bows (X),can shoot over them."

it is NOT "bows of any grade can shoot over Bw(X) only if they are required to be double based behind them".

[LAP1964]

LawrenceG .
You appear to be saying that:

(a) implies Bw(O) DB with Bw(O) for convenience cannot aid their shooting.

Against that I would say that p13 tells you that a DB is treated as 2 elements except for certain exceptions, of which none is shooting. That is as true for Bw(X) as it is for Bw(O). You have already accepted that Bw(X) can shoot over Bw(X) if they are two elements, for the same reason that Bw(O) can shoot over Bw(O).

 :)No why did you think i only wrote Bw(X),which seem to be teated different to other bows in the rules?


2.
(b) is "any Bows that are required to be double-based behind Bows (X),can shoot over them."

it is NOT "bows of any grade can shoot over Bw(X) only if they are required to be double based behind them".

 :)So you agree,if 2 Bw(X) are DB for convenience,it is not the same as a required  DB in any of the lists?

LES

[LawrenceG]

LawrenceG .
You appear to be saying that:

(a) implies Bw(O) DB with Bw(O) for convenience cannot aid their shooting.

Against that I would say that p13 tells you that a DB is treated as 2 elements except for certain exceptions, of which none is shooting. That is as true for Bw(X) as it is for Bw(O). You have already accepted that Bw(X) can shoot over Bw(X) if they are two elements, for the same reason that Bw(O) can shoot over Bw(O).

 :)No why did you think i only wrote Bw(X),which seem to be teated different to other bows in the rules?

Point (a) does not limit which grades of bows it applies to. It appies equally to all bows. It also does not restrict it to single based, required double based, or convenience double based bows. It applies however they are based. This you recognise in the case of Bw(O), so why don't you recognise it in the case of Bw(X)?

Yes Bw(X) are treated differently from other bows, but only in the ways that are explicitly specified. You seem to be inventing another difference, which cannot be inferred from the rule wording.

(a) means bows of the same grade can shoot over other bows of the same grade. As Bw(X) is the same grade as Bw(X), the can shoot over them.

(b) means bows of any grade (same or different) can shoot over Bw(X) if they are on a required double base behind them. It says nothing about bows that are not on a required double base.

2.
(b) is "any Bows that are required to be double-based behind Bows (X),can shoot over them."

it is NOT "bows of any grade can shoot over Bw(X) only if they are required to be double based behind them".

 :)So you agree,if 2 Bw(X) are DB for convenience,it is not the same as a required  DB in any of the lists?

LES

[LAP1964]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kMRdTW1cgaX1HKzDiLJ0NjXehU-w7b-aldbhxdZq-ZDMkQzRr8i703BmZZAsPbcF2wSFeY_iiWeZi1atGCG-0wh6Y6zEsQ/DBMM%20Commentary%20v5_0_6.pdf

Page 6 is where you need to look.

LES

[LawrenceG]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kMRdTW1cgaX1HKzDiLJ0NjXehU-w7b-aldbhxdZq-ZDMkQzRr8i703BmZZAsPbcF2wSFeY_iiWeZi1atGCG-0wh6Y6zEsQ/DBMM%20Commentary%20v5_0_6.pdf

Page 6 is where you need to look.

LES

All I can find is:

Two ranks of Single Based Bow(Exception) aiding ShootingSingle-based Bw(X) placed behind single-based Bw(X) are eligible to aid the shooting of the
front rank as per DBMM p.34. They cannot support in close combat (p.7).

which also says nothing about double-based Bw(X).

However, the reasoning that leads to this conclusion also leads to the conclusion that convenient double-based Bw(X) can shoot over each other.