Moving out of the way

[landmeister]

The following situation raised up in my last game. We have this situation:



Element X is going to contact the flank of element 1. Element X must line up so must use the EMTLU but element 2 is obstructing it. Element 2 is in contact with the table edge on its right, so the only option to move out of the way is moving backwards the minimum necessary distance, according to p. 33. And this is the problem. By doing so part of the front of element X will end in contact simultaneously with the flank of element 1 and the front of element 2.

What to do? We solved it banning the whole move, but I guess the attack should have been done. 

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[arvnranger]

p33 "Moving into close combat", para 2, "Flank edge": "The initiating element ... must end in mutual front corner contact unless blocked by ... an enemy element, in which case the full flank edge or full front edge must be in contact."

I would say Element X moves straight forward to contact the full flank edge of Element 1 (leaving a small gap between the side edges of X and 2) - no EMTLU required. Immediately before starting to resolve close combats Element 1 turns 90deg to face and shifts sideways to line up with Element X (p35, para 2 "Turning to Face Flank or Rear Contact"). Element 2 need not be moved to make room.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[landmeister]

Thak you for your response Ivan but we are then ignoring the mandatory action of the first para on p. 33: "...any obstructing element must immediately be moved PIP-free...out of the way" (bold is mine). Element 2 can be moved out of the way by moving it backwards. IMO this mandatory move takes precedence over all other moves detailed on p. 33.

More opinions? 

[arvnranger]

I too spent some time thinking through the sequence of backwards moves, shifts and turning-to-face ... but, backing up, I believe the Gordian Knot is cut by the suspension of the requirement for X to contact 1's flank front-corner-to-front-corner (being blocked from doing so by an enemy element, 2, and having contacted the *full* flank edge of 1 by moving directly forward). If X is not required to shift into the space occupied by 2, the latter is not an obstructing element.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[landmeister]

But according to it, obstructing elements should never be moved out of the way under these circumstances. This is not what is said in the mandatory requirement of the first para. I hate these apparent rules contradictions...

[william]

Hi Lads,

The second enemy element does not obstrust flank edge contact, therefore is not an obstructor and does not have to move.

William

[landmeister]

Hi william,

Are you sure? I think it's clearly impeding element X to contact 1's flank as required for a flank contact. 

[Valentinian Victor]

Hi william,

Are you sure? I think it's clearly impeding element X to contact 1's flank as required for a flank contact. 

As William stated, element 2 is not impeding element X being able to cover the enter side edge of element 1, therefore its a legal contact as per the rules. However, I believe the situation would have been different if element 2 was one of your own elements as then I have a feeling you could not make contact with the side edge of element 1?

[landmeister]

Interesting. Could someone tell why element 2 in my diagram is not an obstructing element while element X on p. 56 (figure 10b) is? In both cases, the moving element cannot line up as required. As is stated on the first para on p. 33 an element must be moved out of the way if it "...obstruct the moving element's lining up in contact" (bold is mine).

I understand that a contact on a flank is considered legal if the whole flank is coveder by my front edge. But why the presence of enemy elements is not considered an obstruction on flanks and they are on fronts and rears? The first para is clear. Only those in close combat or providing rear support remain untouched. All others MUST be moved out of the way unless friends partially in front.

BTW, Valentinian Victor. If element 2 was friendly, it would be moved out of the way normally, as it is a friend NOT partially in front. 

[arvnranger]

Interesting. Could someone tell why element 2 in my diagram is not an obstructing element while element X on p. 56 (figure 10b) is?

In p56, Fig 10b the blocking element is friendly . In your diagram the blocking element is an enemy hence the removal of the requirement for mutual front corner contact by the moving element X.

Throughout the book there are rules separated in different sections that must be read in conjunction to achieve a full understanding as to how they should be applied to the troop elements on-table. However the order in which these rule "fragments" appear in print does not indicate a hierarchy of application - some recursive logic is necessary. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted your current understanding which appears to be that because the general rule appears in the opening paragraph it can't, in a subsequent paragraph, be modified for a specific situation.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[william]

'In p56, Fig 10b the blocking element is friendly . In your diagram the blocking element is an enemy hence the removal of the requirement for mutual front corner contact by the moving element X.'

Thanks Ivan, could not say it better myself

 

[landmeister]

Definitely, I hate Barkerese  . Thank you very much to both.