Army defeat

[MikeCampbell]

I'm pretty sure.....always open to counter argument that I can understand!!

the 3 ME's per command are not LOST as such - because only elements belonging to the command can be lost - and the 3 ME's per command are not actually elements that belong to each command - they are "free" ME's from the army baggage.

So what happens when the baggage is lost is that the other commands no longer get those 3 ME's - but those 3 ME's no longer count to the size of the command.

Losing 3 ME's per command is not nearly the same as having each command 3 ME's smaller - losing 3 ME's is a disaster - it almost immedediately disheartens the command even if nothing else is lost, whereas being 3 ME's smaller means teh various morale points are less, but it doesn't actually contribute any ME's towards those points. 

Losing 3 ME's is much worse than suddenly becoming 3 ME's smaller.

Hmm...trying to explain here.....consider if one of those commands had lost 2 ME and then the baggage was lost.

If the bagage counted 3 ME's lost then the command would go to 5 ME's lost, and be broken.

If the baggage makes the command 3 ME's smaller (from 12 down to 9 ME's) then the command is disheartened if it loses more than 2.25 ME's (ie >1/4 of 9) - so it is istill fine...for a limited time at least.


It's added complication compared to DBM and I'm not sure it was worth it for the effect 

[toby]

Which means (if this is right) that when you are noting down the break points of your commands (or in your spreadsheet), you need two columns for each command, for disheartened, break and shatter with and without the army baggage.

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi

Hmmm...........

I think my way of interpretating is easier but not nessecarily correct as rules are written ?   

The advantage of Army Baggage is that it is grouped in a Cmd that is hopefully not likely to be attacked and can be in a fortified Camp, but yet gives a Morale Boost to each contibuting Cmd (ie the troops are bouyed by fact their baggage is 'safe'). I still think it loss (as a Cmd) would affect every Cmd ie a -3ME usually

Placing Baggage directly with individual Cmds gives a greater Morale boost (4ME rather than 3) but the baggage is more vulnerable as its within each Cmds 'rectangle' and its loss is of course just as potentially serious. Flip side is it only effects a single Cmd compared with loss of Army Baggage.

Otherwise as Toby says you would have to keep 2 ME records per Cmd which seems tad odd.

In my 'method' once you lose the Army Baggage in its entirety with (assuming 3 Cmds worth) each Cmd suffering a -3ME loss and the Army overall counting -12ME. But if the Army Baggage is only damaged but not broken then the CMds suffer no ME hit and Army overall onlt the individual base loss/es. Unusual for this to happen I suspect unless you have BgF which gets hit but then 'runs' away.
This is similar then to 3 Cmds with 2 pieces of Baggage attached all losing said baggage working out as -4ME per CMd and -12ME to Army.
This is of course serious losses but then surely thats the point ?

Of course Baggage is no longer compulsory so one does not need to field any but your overall Army ME size is thereby reduced, I like having the differing choices.

Of course using the Baggage Cmd as a PIP 'dump' is another choice for some armies
 
Cheers
Gary

[MikeCampbell]

Which means (if this is right) that when you are noting down the break points of your commands (or in your spreadsheet), you need two columns for each command, for disheartened, break and shatter with and without the army baggage.

It's worse than that - those levels will change depending on how much baggage you lose.....what if you only lose 2 out of 6....

I agree it would be much simpler if the whole command just counted lost!

[Platypus]

Hi guys,

The spreadsheet I use has 2 columns for ME, one with baggage (to calculate breakpoints), and one without. In fact I calculate the ME of all elements first, then add the baggage contributions, then calculate breaks and add total army ME.

If you lose the baggage command, then (in my example), the army has lost 12 ME. 3ME for the baggage command and 3 ME each from each of the commands as the baggage is no longer "contributing". These ME is counted as "lost" for the commands in question. So in my example, sacking the baggage puts that army a fair way to breaking, and all commands close to disheartened. Army Baggage is pretty much putting all your eggs in one basket.

Each baggage element you lose in an Army Baggage command loses 0.5 to the command itself, and 0.5 to each contributing command.

I'm starting to use empty bases with "0.5 ME" written on them and chuck them on the command's dead-pile as a reminder. Mind you I've never had to use them as I have never lost baggage in DBMM!!

I _have_ sacked baggage but.....

And yes, it could have been simpler. But it isn't. It _is_ flexible though!

Cheers,
JohnG

[Barritus]

Well, I've got to say that way (Platypus and Michael Campbell's way) isn't the way I've done it. I've always assumed that loss of a command entailed loss of its Army Baggage as well. It probably won't have had a serious effect on any of my games, but it certainly counts a lot more with small armies, such as my little Nikephorian Byzantine army.

[MikeCampbell]

It isn't how I've ever payed it either.

However I will change my mind and say that how Platypus treats baggage losses for the commands "sharing it" is probably correct rather than the system I posted above, ie destroyed baggage counts as "lost" to eth contributing commands and so contributes to break points.

However when commands sharing army baggage break, the army baggage itself has NOT broken, so still does not count as lost.