Overlaps and TF

[andrew]

Hi

I have my own thoughts on this but would appreciate a 2nd opinion or two.

Per the following diagram, attackers #1 and #2 are a group and have moved into front edge combat with a TF defender.  Attacker #1 is fighting Defender #2 who is behind a TF.  Attacker #2 has no-one to their front.  Does attacker #2 overlap the defender?

Same situation as above but defender #2 is part of a group which also includes defender #1, both are defending the TF.  Defender #2 is fighting attacker #1 per the previous paragraph, and defender #1 has no-one to their front.  Does defender #1 overlap attacker #1?

See attached:


Cheers
Andrew

[LawrenceG]

To be in overlap from this position, the element you are assisting has to be in front edge combat with an enemy element or a separating PO [but no mention of fortifications]. P 35.  So your attacker #2 does not overlap defender #2. If attacker#2 advanced into mutual flank edge contact with defender#2 then it would be an overlap.

When storming fortifications, defenders can overlap attackers (p42) so defender #1 does overlap attacker#1.

I note that P35 and p42 appear to contradict each other on the subject of defenders overlapping attackers, but I assume P42 is an overriding special case.

[william]

  Totally agree with Lawrence,

and intersetingly if att1 is of a type that does not get overlapped in the open ( Wwg(S), Exp(O), mounted in own bound etc.) it still gets overlapped in this situation, indeed this also applies to the defenders that would not provide an overlap in the open ( Art or Elephants for mounted etc. ).

I did ask questions about this a while ago and I think thats what this forum came up with.

I would like to know ( or reaffirm ) if  Def2 is at a corner ( ie TF to it's open side )  and Att2 was more forward ( side edge level with Def2 with TF in between ) would this count as an overlap.

William

[MikeCampbell]

Totally agree with Lawrence,

Ditto

and intersetingly if att1 is of a type that does not get overlapped in the open ( Wwg(S), Exp(O), mounted in own bound etc.) it still gets overlapped in this situation, indeed this also applies to the defenders that would not provide an overlap in the open ( Art or Elephants for mounted etc. ).

I did ask questions about this a while ago and I think thats what this forum came up with.

Yep - the exceptions for overlaps are listed under a heading "Other than when storming fortifications..." - so none of hte exceptions apply when doing so!

I would like to know ( or reaffirm ) if  Def2 is at a corner ( ie TF to it's open side )  and Att2 was more forward ( side edge level with Def2 with TF in between ) would this count as an overlap.

AFAIK this would not be an overlap - side edge contact has to be with the element being overlapped - there is no provision for it to count if there's a TF in between, or even a PO

[LawrenceG]

I would like to know ( or reaffirm ) if  Def2 is at a corner ( ie TF to it's open side )  and Att2 was more forward ( side edge level with Def2 with TF in between ) would this count as an overlap.

AFAIK this would not be an overlap - side edge contact has to be with the element being overlapped - there is no provision for it to count if there's a TF in between, or even a PO

YEs, that was my thinking, too.

[andrew]

Thanks everyone - that confirms my thinking!

Cheers
Andrew