Contacting the Flank of DBE

[william]

  Hello,

This came up in a game at the Celtic, it is a little similar to the last 'not lining up' topic. I contacted the front of a DBE Bw(X) and also wanted to contact the flank, there was the old dreaded TZ not permiting me to conform front corner to front corner so I contacted the whole of the flank of the Bw(X) but not the Bw(O), is this a legal contact?


Cheers

William

[foxgom]

Hi

If a element covers the flank of a friend it conventionally has to be at or within 80mm of the friends front edge.
Any enemy trying to flank contact the friend with front corner to front corner would reach or be within the TZ of the protecting element.

What you are proposing means the protecting element needs to be at or within 40mm of the rear edge of the friend.

Sounds horrible to me but I cannot find anything to prevent it.

neil fox

[andrew]

Hi William

I don't think it is a legal contact.  Page 13 : "A double element counts as 2 elements, except ... lt contacts enemy or responds to enemy as if a single element."  And page 33 says : if contacting the flank you must contact the full flank.

Andrew

[william]

Hi William

I don't think it is a legal contact.  Page 13 : "A double element counts as 2 elements, except ... lt contacts enemy or responds to enemy as if a single element."  And page 33 says : if contacting the flank you must contact the full flank.

Andrew

Good job I did not kill any then.

  Now I may have been tricky in this, but does this apply to DBE'd mounted, if the elements flank is longer than your front is it possible that you can not flank lock it ?

This may not apply to train as which ever side is contacted first counts as the front but in that case one would probably want to contact a flank first.

William

[andrew]

Hi William

The reason I quoted that rule was that I would expect the length of the DBE foot element is either less than or equal to the width of your element.  However, in the case of a DBE mounted element (which, as you mentioned, has a length greater than the frontal width of your element) you can still make a legal flank contact by making a legal front corner to front corner contact - check out the rules for 'close combat'.  A legal flank contact on a DEB mounted element still counts as 'front edge combat' so you still get the -1 tactical factor and quick kill.

Andrew

[william]

Hi William

The reason I quoted that rule was that I would expect the length of the DBE foot element is either less than or equal to the width of your element.  However, in the case of a DBE mounted element (which, as you mentioned, has a length greater than the frontal width of your element) you can still make a legal flank contact by making a legal front corner to front corner contact - check out the rules for 'close combat'.  A legal flank contact on a DEB mounted element still counts as 'front edge combat' so you still get the -1 tactical factor and quick kill.

Andrew

  Thanks Andrew,

  I suddenly had this horrible nightmare of unkillable DBEd Kn(S) in wedge charging down upon me, I could see no way of killing them.

( well except with elephants and expendables ).

William

[MikeCampbell]

I don't think the rule that it reacts to contact as if a single element has any bearing on whether you can contact only the front or rear element in a DBE.

that is how the DBE reacts - not how the contacting element has to conform. 

So IMO your original situation was fine - in this situatoni the DBE reacts as if a single element - ie it does nothing, since it is already contacted to its front.  and it then gets -1 for having enemy in contract with its flank, to die if beaten, etc

[andrew]

I don't think the rule that it reacts to contact as if a single element has any bearing on whether you can contact only the front or rear element in a DBE.

that is how the DBE reacts - not how the contacting element has to conform. 

So IMO your original situation was fine - in this situatoni the DBE reacts as if a single element - ie it does nothing, since it is already contacted to its front.  and it then gets -1 for having enemy in contract with its flank, to die if beaten, etc

Come on Mike, we aren't going through this again are we?  I quoted the rule - why would you contradict this with your thoughts?  If you want to debate this, which parts of : "It contacts enemy or responds to enemy contact as if a single element" don't apply?  And which rule on which page are you going to quote to support your thoughts?  We have already thrashed the tactical factors in another thread - you know what needs to happen to inflict a -1 tactical factor.

Andrew

[MikeCampbell]

the rule you quoted specified how it contacts enemy and how it reacts to contact  - nothing about how enemy aer allowed or required to contact it. 

"Contacts" is an active verb that applies when the element is the active element - ie how it moves into contact with enemy

Since there is nothing in the section on DBE's that specifies how enemy contact it the normal rules apply, the section on DBE's says that it coutns as 2 elements (since it's not one of het exceptions listed) and therefore a contacting enemy lines up with the flanks as it would with any other element.

ref page 33 - "Moving into close combat"

I hope that clarifies the rules for you.

[andrew]

From the commentary:

Contacting the Flank of Double-Based Elements.
It is not possible to contact just the flank of the rear element of a double based element.  It is treated as one element for the purposes of contact. See DBMM Rules p.13.

[MikeCampbell]

Remember the commentary is NOT the rules - and it is not infalible - I think I shall take it up with the team

[andrew]

Agreed on all counts.  I would prefer the decision-making process of the committee was a little more transparent because I too have issues with a couple of the interpretations....

[MikeCampbell]

I hate to be picky but I can't find that bit you quote from the commentary!

What page is it on?

[andrew]

Version 4.14 released March 2009 :

here

[MikeCampbell]

thanks