Contact on bent column's flank

[landmeister]

Dear all,

Please look at diagarm enclosed. White elements are a column moving down. Yellow elements are mine and I want to contact both flanks of the column.



Now my questions.

1. Left yellow element can't contact the flank of the first two elements of the column because of the presence of the third element's TZ (doted line). It cannot contact the flank of the third one because of the fourth's ZT. How can I contact then?  

2. Right yellow. I want to contact third and fourth's flanks in order to make them turn and so break the column. I cannot line up with any of those flanks because my right front corner will contact the flank of the fifth element before!  

Are both of them geometric ploys that can't be solved by normal rules application? My opponent said that the only way to solve both situations was breakig the rules in ordre to apply the one at page 33 about avoiding geometric ploys.  

Any help will be appreciated. Thank you.

[LAP1964]

 



Now my questions.

1. Left yellow element can't contact the flank of the first two elements of the column because of the presence of the third element's TZ (doted line). It cannot contact the flank of the third one because of the fourth's ZT. How can I contact then?  

  I think if you first line up with front of the leading element then move straight forwards that is OK?  

2. Right yellow. I want to contact third and fourth's flanks in order to make them turn and so break the column. I cannot line up with any of those flanks because my right front corner will contact the flank of the fifth element before!  

  That looks correct,as there doesn't seem to be a element wide gap ?

LES

[landmeister]

I think if you first line up with front of the leading element then move straight forwards that is OK?  

But what if I don't want to? Is this the proof that geometric ploys are still present in DBMM? The absolute requirement to contact an enemy is not so absolute after all...

That looks correct,as there doesn't seem to be a element wide gap ?

I got the answer for this one rereading carefully the first para of page 33. As I want to contact the flank of the third element, elements 4 and 5 will be moved out of the way (they are not in close combat nor giving support) the minimun necesary for my element to line up front to flank. At least one of the ploys is solved.

[william]

  Looking back through the older posts this came up before, Unbeatable formation IIRC.

It's not old news though 

Mike and Lawrance had a right barny over this, I think (only an opinion) that Mike had the 'fairer'  veiw in that troops in a kinked column could count as being behind and lined upto the one in front for TZ purposes, that was version 1, maybe version 2 has changed it, so therefore the flank could be contacted, I think. As an umpire or player I would expect this to happen.

This had some effects on columns on and off roads and in difficult (again if IIRC), so I may indeed be very wrong.

William

[landmeister]

Mike and Lawrance had a right barny over this, I think (only an opinion) that Mike had the 'fairer'  veiw in that troops in a kinked column could count as being behind and lined upto the one in front for TZ purposes, that was version 1, maybe version 2 has changed it

I find no references about that under 2.0 so it must have been changed. 

[LawrenceG]

The wording for columns being treated as if the elements were lined up directly behind each other was changed, so that old debate should no longer be applicable.

The new TZ rule allowing you to move straight ahead towards the element exerting the TZ eliminates most uncontactable formations and was intended to eliminate all of them. You sometimes have to line up on the previous move so you can come into contact with a straight-ahead move, and sometimes you might have to contact another element instad of the one you originally wanted to contact.

In the example in the OP, it looks as though the flank of the first element would be protected, but not the flank of the second. The front of the front element can be contacted, so it is not an uncontactable element.

If you can make some kind of contact on an element then the rule allowing obstructing enemy to be moved out of the way will usually allow it (as has already been pointed out on this one), but remember it is only if the elements themselves physically block lining up - TZs can still prevent lining up on flank or rear edges.

[landmeister]

The wording for columns being treated as if the elements were lined up directly behind each other was changed, so that old debate should no longer be applicable.

Could you please tell me where's the current wording now? I would like to show it to my future opponents 

In the example in the OP, it looks as though the flank of the first element would be protected, but not the flank of the second.

Excuse me, but could you tell me how?  In both cases my element will have to line up to that flank within that ZT. There's no difference between them.

TZs can still prevent lining up on flank or rear edges.

As this is tha case for both first and second elements 

[LawrenceG]

The wording for columns being treated as if the elements were lined up directly behind each other was changed, so that old debate should no longer be applicable.

Could you please tell me where's the current wording now? I would like to show it to my future opponents 

PAge 29 para 3. Same paragraph for old and new rules if you want to compare the two.

In the example in the OP, it looks as though the flank of the first element would be protected, but not the flank of the second.

Excuse me, but could you tell me how?  In both cases my element will have to line up to that flank within that ZT. There's no difference between them.

To contact the 2nd element will take two moves:

Move 1 - line up out of the TZ
Move 2 - straight ahead into a lined up flank contact (no EMTLU needed). This uses P32, THREAT ZONE, 5th bullet, item (c).

THis does not work for the front element because moving straight ahead while already lined up will not be directly towards the element exerting the TZ.

It is possible the TZ of the 4th element might still protect the flank of the 2nd element, but I'm not sure from the diagram if that is the case or not.

TZs can still prevent lining up on flank or rear edges.

As this is tha case for both first and second elements 

They can prevent you lining up, BUT
If you are ALREADY lined up, they can't stop you moving straight ahead into contact AS LONG AS you are moving directly towards the element exerting the TZ.

[landmeister]

Larry, thank you very much  . This is one of those rules with more consequences on game than initially foreseen. Impressive! You're right. As soon as I move straight ahead againt any enemy TZ I can still contact that flank.

In my example, all elements are Ps. But, according to it, what would happen if all elements of the white column were Sp/Pk/Bd? I think I would be able to contact the flank of the first element. My front (40 mm) will be deeper than both 1st and 2nd enemy flanks, so The third enemy's ZT will still be respected as per 5th bullet. Do you agree?

[LawrenceG]

Larry, thank you very much  . This is one of those rules with more consequences on game than initially foreseen. Impressive! You're right. As soon as I move straight ahead againt any enemy TZ I can still contact that flank.

In my example, all elements are Ps. But, according to it, what would happen if all elements of the white column were Sp/Pk/Bd? I think I would be able to contact the flank of the first element. My front (40 mm) will be deeper than both 1st and 2nd enemy flanks, so The third enemy's ZT will still be respected as per 5th bullet. Do you agree?

Yes, provided that the TZ of the 4th or 5th element in the column does not interfere.

[landmeister]

Ok. Thank you very much