When does a battle begin?

[landmeister]

On page 43 we read that disheartened and broken commands are so considered when the appropriate number of troops have been lost since the start of the battle. Bold is mine. So when does the battle begin exactly? I'm thinking about the scouting stratagem. Are troops destroyed after dicing 1 considered lost before the battle or while in battle?

Consequences on commands ME are very different in each case.

[Valentinian Victor]

I would suggest that the battle starts once you have actually deployed troops on the table, which would mean that elements spent due to scouting count towards the disheartened/broken limits.

[landmeister]

According to the Scouting stratagem, those elements are destroyed (sic). And on page 42 is read that destroyed elements are lost. So they can't count as spent at any moment. The question is: must all commands ME be recalculated or not for the current battle?

[Valentinian Victor]

Not sure what you mean here.

Any scouting elements that are lost are used in the normal way for calculating if the command becomes disheartened. So, if the command they come from is 24ME and you lose two Lh scouts then the command is still 24ME, but your only 4.5 ME from that command from becoming disheartened before you have even started moving!

[landmeister]

What I mean is that if we consider the start of the battle is the first dice for aggression, your numbers are correct. However, if we consider the start of the battle is the deployment on table, then my command is NOT 24 ME, but 22 ME after having lost both scouts. This new ME value then modifies all disheartened/broken/shattered levels. 

[Valentinian Victor]

I think everyone plays it that they come off the command total as if the game was already underway. Otherwise you would slow the game right down having to work out the new ME for that command, the new disheartened and broken points and the army break point.

[landmeister]

This is how I understand it, but I can't find a reason (ie a written rule) to counter someone defending the other view 

[Valentinian Victor]

Post the question on the Yahoo DBMM list and see what kind of response you get there.

[landmeister]

Question answered. The battle begins once deployment is finished, so ME numbers must be recalculated.

Thanks

[Valentinian Victor]

Question answered. The battle begins once deployment is finished, so ME numbers must be recalculated.

Thanks

I'm not sure if the consensus is that you have to recalculate the ME. Look at this logically, the two armies are deployed ready for battle, your scouts are sent out and discover an ambush, some of the scouts are killed in the process, does that then make the command the scouts come from any less of an effective fighting force?

[landmeister]

I understand your logic but according to the rules as they are written right now, this is not the case. I renounced to understand Phil many years ago. Now I just feel happy if I understand his writing correctly 

[Orcoteuthis]

It seems pretty clear to me that the intention is they count as lost after the battle begins*. That the rules as written fail to say this is simply a mistake.

Phil being Phil, however, there's a nonzero risk he'll convince himself he had some clever idea behind it and that the rules as they are are as they should be.


* Consider, frex, that Psiloi scouts can be lost or spent - if they don't count towards breaking the command it makes precious little difference which!

[landmeister]

Phil being Phil, however, there's a nonzero risk he'll convince himself he had some clever idea behind it and that the rules as they are are as they should be.

I agree 

[foxgom]

Hi

"lost since the start of the battle" is probably meant to distinguish from "elements lost this move". a parameter sometimes used in other rules.

I think it´s pretty clear that dead scouts count towards demoralisation.


neil