Troop Points Discussion (complaint) - Pike

[madmike1]

I have played 6 large games (600+ pts) so far and have found some problems with the relative points cost of units. 

Pikes seem to be over priced compared to other units like warbands and blade units.  In each game pikes have been slaughtered in frontal attacks by the Blade and warbands due to the auto kill on a push back during the enemy turn.   In particular it is almost impossible for a pike unit to kill a Blade due to the blades high combat factor. 

As the pike has to be fielded in columns of 4 to get their full benefit it costs 16pts for Pk(0).  Compared to a single rank of Bd at 7 pts or 2 ranks of warband at 6pts.   

An even worse comparison is my poor Scots army, all irr Pk(i) at 3pts, suffers from all the irregular PIP costs plus being ?inferior?. 

[Hammy]

But Phil has on several occasions stated that the points costs for DBMM have been carefully considered and that there is nothing wrong with them

I personally think that there are gaping holes in the AP system for DBMM but I can't see anything being done to fix them 

[Aloysius the Gaul]

high factors for blades??

Starting at 4, -1 for a 4th rank of pike in the pike bounds, often another -1 or even -2 for 2 overlaps....leaves them on as little as 1 playing 5 for the pike, commonly 2... the chances of killing that Bd are then 18/36 or 12/36 - that's a massacre - you can kill the Bd even if you roll a 1 for the combat!!

Vs Wb the chances of killing the Wb are even greater since it starts a factor lower - it ends up at 0 if overlapped twice, or 1 if overlapped once - so 24/36 or 18/36.

Both the Wb and the Bd have to roll 2 higher to get the kill on the Pike assuming no overlaps - which is a 10/36 chance. 

Are you doign your combats in the right order?  You should be starting where you have the overlaps.....given the high factors of pike they will generally push their opponents back, so choosing the order of combat is very important.

[Doug M.]

high factors for blades??

Starting at 4, -1 for a 4th rank of pike in the pike bounds, often another -1 or even -2 for 2 overlaps....leaves them on as little as 1 playing 5 for the pike, commonly 2... the chances of killing that Bd are then 18/36 or 12/36 - that's a massacre - you can kill the Bd even if you roll a 1 for the combat!!

Unfortunately, this only kicks in on the Pike Bound. When the Blade have the initiative, they can choose where to start. Factor 4 (no -1) vs 5, plus the Blade get to choose where to start, game situations will always be different, but assuming an all Bd(O) army vs an all Pk(O) army, then it's 7AP vs 16AP - there will be plenty of overlaps. That makes it 4-4 with a quick-kill to the Blade, yes they only kill one rank at a time, but that means that the Pk no longer count the -1 for the fourth rank unless initially deployed very deep.

Of course - you shouldn't deploy Bd(O) in one deep - but even assuming small reserves to plug gaps in the line (much easier now with the longer move) the Bd still have an AP advantage. 

To survive the Pike must be either deployed very deep or broad enough to survive the first onslaught. Against Wb(F) it is worse, 3-4 (3-3  with overlap) and the quick-kill takes 2 ranks, plus the Wb with the longer move have a better chance of initiating combat.

Don't even start on Pk(I). I have run small scenarios and there aren't too many things I would want to run them against. Certainly not Bd(O), Bw(S) or Wb.

regards

[Barritus]

When using Pike, it's essential to have a Psiloi screen. Let the Wb or Bd hit the screen (and perhaps spend them), and then you charge into the enemy in your turn. It's worked fine for me.

It's the same thing with Cv (S) v Kn (F) fights. The perception there is that whoever moves into charge range will lose, meaning that both sides will stay outside charge range, waiting for the other to move first. If you have a screen of skirmishers, you can advance with impunity.

Of course, in each of these cases, the enemy might have skirmishers too, in which case you should make sure either (a) you have a lot more or (b) he wastes a lot of points in skirmishers that makes up for the cheapness of his infantry.

[madmike1]

When using Pike, it's essential to have a Psiloi screen. Let the Wb or Bd hit the screen (and perhaps spend them), and then you charge into the enemy in your turn. It's worked fine for me.

Ok, let?s look at this scenario ?
For the cost of the pike column (16pts) you can buy 5 warbands (15pts).  Even if everything goes to plan you kill the first warband or bd, that still leaves multiple ranks of Wb and Bd to respond.  The Wb and Bd only have to push back to kill one or 2 ranks of pike, once that happens the pike rapidly collapse.

I don?t disagree with the pike being beaten, only with the relative cost of the pike.  16 pts of Wb buys a lot more killing power than 4 pike elements.   I can?t think of any realistic scenario where an irr Pk(I) could deemed the same value as a Wb. 
       

It's the same thing with Cv (S) v Kn (F) fights. The perception there is that whoever moves into charge range will lose, meaning that both sides will stay outside charge range, waiting for the other to move first. If you have a screen of skirmishers, you can advance with impunity.

Doesn?t this scenario sound a bit strange to you?  It flat open ground, 2 enemy horse units face off with each other, both scared to advance a few more metres towards the enemy because if they do the other side will charge them.  What makes it worse is that the horse unit that crossed the line of death must stand to receive, no counter charging here please. 

[Aloysius the Gaul]

No it doesn't sound strange - firstly as has been posted, do the attacking yourself.  Certainly your opponent gets to choose hte order of combat in his bound - nothing your can do about that, only do the best you can when YOU have the choice.

My math already mentioned that the -1 for het 4th rank of pike only counts in the pike bound - just like the QK of the pike by the Wb or Bd only counts in their bound. 

It's also not compulsory to fight only 4 deep - 6 deep is possibly better - it doesn't matter how much it costs per frontage as long as you're killing enough troops - 5 deep Wb will break long before 5 deep pike, and pike did sometimes fight deeper - it's not set in stone.

Pike are not actually supposed to be killer troops - they are supposed to push and grind and wear the other guy down, which they will usually do as long as you're patient enough in DBMM....much more so than they used to do when they died in 4's and blade were factor 5........ 

Then there's the rest of your army - pike usually come with a regular army so you should be working hard to get good matchups - eg Kn vs Wb are fun.

If it's not a regular army then you're probably running Pk(I), in which case I suspect conventional wisdom will be the run them a minimum of 6 deep, 'cos you are going to lose bucket loads so get ready for it, and that's why they'er only 3 AP's per element and 1/2 ME!

Lastly it is always incorrect to match single troop types against each other and compare them solely on that basis - pike are much more cost effective vs all mounted troops than Bd for example (at worst they have the same factor and are killed by the same things, and often they are much better), and that is another factor that must be considered when setting an overall AP cost.

The points may not be "correct" - but a comparison of Pk vs Bd and Wb is not nearly enough to support any change.

[Barritus]

I don't disagree with the pike being beaten, only with the relative cost of the pike. 16 pts of Wb buys a lot more killing power than 4 pike elements. I can't think of any realistic scenario where an irr Pk(I) could deemed the same value as a Wb.

As Aloysius has said, there's a lot more to determining the relative cost of troops than pitting them against each other. For example, one big advantage that Pike get is their free march move. Given that warband also suffer from the extra cost of difficult evolutions, their normal movement is likely to only be straight ahead. Pike should be able to use their greater maneuverability to sidestep warband and fight on their own terms. A player with a Warband army should be very grateful if his Pike opponent just lines up and advances.
       
I said:

It's the same thing with Cv (S) v Kn (F) fights. The perception there is that whoever moves into charge range will lose, meaning that both sides will stay outside charge range, waiting for the other to move first. If you have a screen of skirmishers, you can advance with impunity.

MadMike1 replied:

Doesn't this scenario sound a bit strange to you? It flat open ground, 2 enemy horse units face off with each other, both scared to advance a few more metres towards the enemy because if they do the other side will charge them. What makes it worse is that the horse unit that crossed the line of death must stand to receive, no counter charging here please.

It's a reasonable point, but one which has been an issue in DBM as well - after all, counter-charging wasn't available there either, but I don't remember many people complaining. The Cv (S)/Kn (F) match-up has long been of interest to players. In some versions of DBM, Cv (S) had the advantage, while in other versions, Kn (F) had the advantage. Now both sides have the advantage, in their own turn. This doesn't prevent disasters though - I've watched enemy Kn (F) charge onto my Cv (S) and LH (F), and break in that round of combat.

[madmike1]

As Aloysius has said, there's a lot more to determining the relative cost of troops than pitting them against each other. For example, one big advantage that Pike get is their free march move. Given that warband also suffer from the extra cost of difficult evolutions, their normal movement is likely to only be straight ahead. Pike should be able to use their greater maneuverability to sidestep warband and fight on their own terms. A player with a Warband army should be very grateful if his Pike opponent just lines up and advances.

In all the games I have seen Warbands have a much greater frontage than the pike.  2 rank Warbands are going to have 3 times the frontage of a 4 rank pike.  Its been suggested here that the pikes should be formed up even deeper than 4 ranks.  I can?t see any realistic scenario how a pike unit could conceivably out manoeuvre a large warband it is facing off against.   

I don?t think it?s unreasonable in my examples to expect the pike units to face off against the enemies main fighting troops, be that Bd or Wb.  I have never read of any battles where the pikes managed fancy sidesteps to avoid straight frontal conflicts. 

Anyway back to my grip about irr Pk(I) being the same cost of Wb(O), in this case the Pk have the same movement penalties as the Wb with the added disadvantage of being inferior. 

[Doug M.]

"Anyway back to my grip about irr Pk(I) being the same cost of Wb(O), in this case the Pk have the same movement penalties as the Wb
with the added disadvantage of being inferior. "

It is an issue I have raised repeatedly. No sign of it changing. I suspect that the only reason the Scots are Irr Pk(I) is because there is no such class as Irr Pk(O).

regards

[Aloysius the Gaul]

There is Irr Pk(O) - you can't buy them but you can dismount Scots Kn as Irr Pk(O).

Pike has a number of advantages over Wb - they are better vs mounted and they get a free move if they are at least 2 deep - both of these are worth quite a bit, having played against them.

The points equality is perfectly justified when you lok at it objectively and stop complaining about a single matchup.

[Brian]

I agree about the points cost of pikes being too expensive, especially Irregular Pike(I) being equal with Regular Pike (I).
A very simple way of reducing the cost would be to make the rear rank of DOUBLE BASED pike cheaper.

Say 1 point cheaper for Regular, 2 points for Irregular. SO SIMPLE.

I also believe that the -1 for the 4th rank should count in ALL rounds, it works well in 3.1
Why would the 4th rankers lift their weapons during melee ?

[Aloysius the Gaul]

They don't "lift their weapons" - it is DBMM giving you incentive to attack with troops that should attack.

[Brian]

Simple answer to that one is, +1 for Charging. Would save all that 'your bound my bound stuff '.

[toby]

Then you get all the arguments over which elements charged this bound and which were already in combat.