Author Topic: repulsed  (Read 8957 times)

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loki223

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repulsed
« on: September 07, 2007, 04:33:21 PM »
having a spot on this one.

If a unit is repulsed they recoil first then move a full move away from the enemy but still face the enemy? If I have this right  I shall proceed.

what if the repulsed element has a friendly element with in its base depth to the rear?

also what if there is a friendly element in its direct movement area for the repulse but not within base depth???

example... friendly unit is 300 paces behind an element that would rupulse into them but not pass through them???

toby

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2007, 10:23:48 AM »
If an element is unable to fully complete a repluse then it can do it. Normally there is an option to recoil or repulse, so they would have to recoil instead.

The repulse is the equivalent of the DBM break off move. It is an opportunity for a fast element to get the hell out of Dodge while it still can. If its line of retreat is blocked, its got to stay put.

loki223

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2007, 03:30:52 PM »
If an element is unable to fully complete a repluse then it can do it.

is this supposed to can or Can't?


DaveMather

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2007, 03:56:07 PM »
He meant can't

Basically if you cant make a repulse move as an outcome  because troops or terrain prevent you making the full distance it becomes a recoil instead
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 03:58:35 PM by DaveMather »

loki223

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2007, 08:59:18 PM »
ok , can a repulse move push back friendlys?

DaveMather

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2007, 12:14:33 AM »
Initially yes

If you have a repulse outcome the first thing you do is recoil -

lets assume my single LH(O) has charged your single Bd(O) in Good Going

4-3 to the Blade - we both roll 1s -  - 5-4

My LH may repulse if I chose as you are foot and its my own bound

It first recoils - then moves its full tactical move back ending 320 paces from the Bd

NOTE it is not recoil then 320 paces - it finishes 320 paces away

Now lets assume the same again but this time I have  2 ranks of LH(F) and charge your Blade

3-3 (the Bd takes a -1 for fighting LH(F) with a supporting rank)

we both roll 1-1s (must change those dice)

finishes 4-4

I have the option to repulse on a draw

I first recoil - however that is it
I cannot move any further because I have pushed back friends. p41 Repulsed Elements "If this does not push back friends ......"

Examples are

LH (O) with a repulse outcome will end 320 paces away if there is nothing behind them
LH with friends directly behind/in ranks will recoil only
LH (O) with another element of LH say 100 paces behind them (and facing in the same direction) will repulse 320 paces (because they can completely pass through them)
LH with another element of LH say 100 paces behind them  (but at an angle) will recoil only
LH (O) with enemy or an enemy's TZ in the 320 paces behind them will recoil only
LH with a Wood 200 paces behind them will recoil only (because they do not have the movement to enter it)
LH (O) with a Wood say 100 paces behind will repulse 160 paces
LH with a Craggy Hill say 100 paces behind them will recoil only
LH (O) with a battlefield edge in the 320 paces behind them will recoil only

Regards

David Mather

loki223

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2007, 09:10:07 PM »


NOTE it is not recoil then 320 paces - it finishes 320 paces away


Examples are

LH (O) with a repulse outcome will end 320 paces away if there is nothing behind them
LH with friends directly behind/in ranks will recoil only
LH (O) with another element of LH say 100 paces behind them (and facing in the same direction) will repulse 320 paces (because they can completely pass through them)
LH with another element of LH say 100 paces behind them  (but at an angle) will recoil only
LH (O) with enemy or an enemy's TZ in the 320 paces behind them will recoil only
LH with a Wood 200 paces behind them will recoil only (because they do not have the movement to enter it)
LH (O) with a Wood say 100 paces behind will repulse 160 paces
LH with a Craggy Hill say 100 paces behind them will recoil only
LH (O) with a battlefield edge in the 320 paces behind them will recoil only

Regards

David Mather

thsanks these examples are great....and the note is good to. i thought you recoiled and then repulsed...which equaled a flee move but was still facing the enemy.

landmeister

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 09:07:56 PM »
Ok, but what happens when you are repulsed and your enemy (kn) pursues 80p? Is the repulsed distance measured before or after that pursuing move?

Thanks

DaveMather

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 11:22:52 PM »
Check pursuing elements p42

the bit in square brackets

Regards

David Mather

landmeister

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2007, 11:42:37 AM »
Oooops!  ;D Well, what can I say? Another mistake amongst hundreds of them.  :P

Thank you.

LawrenceG

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2008, 06:34:45 PM »
I've just played a game in which a couple of questions came up re repulsed elements.

1. If you can recoil, but not complete the repulse move, would the recoil count as a repulse?

From reading the thread above, I infer that it would, so an element with an option to be repulsed can always at least recoil if this is possible.

2. An element is in the good going (GGo) with difficult going (DGo) behind.

If it repulses back into the DGo, when it moves out into combat again it will end outside the DGo, so it repulses back its GGo move distance. If this takes it out the other side of the DGo, then when it moves forward it will reach the DGo and hence must use its DGo move distance. Therefore it cannot repulse this far. It cannot stop inside the DGo eihter, as it will then be less than a full move from the enemy. There seems to be no valid repulse distance in this case.

The commentary says
Quote
Repulse Outcome if Unable to Repulse Fully due to Bad Going
If a repulsed element has bad going within a tactical move and directly behind them and they have
insufficient move to enter it (due to being slowed by reaching the bad going), then they recoil instead.


I'm not sure this is applicable to this case, or at all. The repulse moves you back until you are your tactical move distance from the enemy. It does not move you back your tactical move distance. Or does it?

toby

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 09:44:32 AM »
1. If you cannot complete the repluse move, you cannot start it. You don't get to do the recoil bit of it then stop. If repulse is your only option, then you have to stand still. Some troops have the option to repulse or recoil, in which case they could chose to recoil instead.

2. Hmm - tricky. I would say that it should end up its DGo move back, in the GGo. That is the principle that is applied to normal moves. The Commentary ruling seems a little bizarre, but there might be a reason for it, so I would rule in line with the Commentary, but I will have a look at the Commentary ruling to see if there is a reason for it.

LawrenceG

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 11:22:04 AM »
1. If you cannot complete the repluse move, you cannot start it. You don't get to do the recoil bit of it then stop. If repulse is your only option, then you have to stand still. Some troops have the option to repulse or recoil, in which case they could chose to recoil instead.

On reflection, I think this is the opposite of what the rules say. They say:
"The repulsed element first recoils.
If certain condtions are met, it then moves back until it is its tactical move distance from the enemy"
The only conditional bit is the part after the initial recoil. The implication is that if you can't fully repulse then you stop after the recoil bit.

Quote
2. Hmm - tricky. I would say that it should end up its DGo move back, in the GGo. That is the principle that is applied to normal moves. The Commentary ruling seems a little bizarre, but there might be a reason for it, so I would rule in line with the Commentary, but I will have a look at the Commentary ruling to see if there is a reason for it.

Having thought about this some more, I think the best way to handle it would be to say you move back the minimum of:

The distance you would go if you made a full tactical move back from the enemy;
The distance at which you can just reach the enemy if you make a tactical move towards them.

You stop after the recoil if:
You pushed friends back while recoiling;
You can't complete the move back without contacting the listed items;
You are already beyond a tactical move from enemy (could happen if repulsing from long range shooting).

In that case the result is the one you describe, i.e. the commentary section on stopping short of terrain would apply (An element that would reach DGo or RGo from GGo with its GGo move will only move its DGo or RGo
move distance (as appropriate) although this may cause it to end its move some distance from the area
feature.)

This would be a change from what the commentary currently says on "repulse", but I think it would still be consistent with the rules and cover most, if not all, repulse questions and make the commentary self-consistent.


IMO repulse is more complicated than it needs to be because of the exact wording used and the strange way that the movement system works when you reach terrain. The equivalent rule in FOG amounts to "Move back as far as possible as long as you can still contact the enemy". They do not impose a requirement to go back a full move, and you can stop short of a full move if obstructed.

LawrenceG1

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Re: repulsed
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 10:04:01 AM »
The rules governing "Repulse" changed in version 2 so these questions no longer arise.

This shouldn't be a sticky any more.