Inert generals

[landmeister]

I Want to play with an Inert C-in-C and this is what I've collected from the rules. Rules checkers' help will be much appreciated.

1. All regular subordinate generals (including himself) must substract 1 PIP from every dice! This means that rolling a 1 means a zero!! 

2. The C-in-C cannot use the "free" PIP for his command.

3. Not all stratagems can be used (only those listed on page 15).

Anything else?

Thank you.

[DaveMather]

I Want to play with an Inert C-in-C and this is what I've collected from the rules. Rules checkers' help will be much appreciated.

1. All regular subordinate generals (including himself) must substract 1 PIP from every dice! This means that rolling a 1 means a zero!! 

All commands regular or irregular (on table) subtract -1 from their PIP dice so yes a roll of 1,1,1 would leave you no pips - although Regular sub generals would still have their "free" PIP so they (or group of regulars with them) may still make a 1PIP move.

2. The C-in-C cannot use the "free" PIP for his command.

Spot on

3. Not all stratagems can be used (only those listed on page 15).

Spot on - only Feigned Flight, Portable Obstacles, Delaying Battle and Unusual Troops (Scythed chariots only)

Anything else?

They always move second regardless of who deployed first - see top of p26 Sequence of Play

TIP - using a Regular army led by an inert C-in-C with a regular baggage or train PIP dump (eg assign it the lowest dice) is proving quite successful at the moment - although obviously this restricts your choice of army somewhat - but we are seeing a few more Claudius's and Charles the Bold's then previously

Thank you.

You are welcome

Regards


David Mather

[landmeister]

Ok. Thank you very much.

TIP - using a Regular army led by an inert C-in-C with a regular baggage or train PIP dump (eg assign it the lowest dice) is proving quite successful at the moment - although obviously this restricts your choice of army somewhat - but we are seeing a few more Claudius's and Charles the Bold's then previously

Really? Even losing a minimum o 3 PIP per bound (3 commands)?  I can't see why. I want to play my Teutonic with Inert von Shenke as C-in-C.  Could you give me some more trips? Why having a general-less train command as a PIP dump can compensate losing 4 PIPs per bound?

Thank you very much in advance.

[DaveMather]

Really? Even losing a minimum o 3 PIP per bound (3 commands)?  I can't see why. I want to play my Teutonic with Inert von Shenke as C-in-C.  Could you give me some more trips? Why having a general-less train command as a PIP dump can compensate losing 4 PIPs per bound?

Thank you very much in advance.

The rationale behind it is you gain 75 AP for the inert gen and normally would sacrifice mobility however with 3 reg commands and a regular PIP dump you can offset some of the mobility problem - you assign the lowest dice to your baggage camp/train command - which as they aren't going anywhere is a Dump - this gives more PIPs to the other commands - a mathematician will be able to explain better probably with a bell graph/curve - try rolling 4 and 3 dice a number of times say 12 and see how it alters the PIPs - Not my style of army and there are variants but basically - lowest dice to camp/train dump give the subs small mobile commands of regular troops - thus they always have 1 PIP at least should you roll the dread 1,1,1,1 - C-inC large body of troops (this could have the highest dice which with 4 dice is likely to be a 5,6 most of the time.)   Don't average.   

based on the competition results so far its doing not bad - No guarantee with winning with it - the player still has some say over the army's performance 

Competition       Location    Entrants    Winner                C-in-C (on table not person  )
Challenge           UK            6             Hittite Empire       Brilliant (Muwatallis)
Wollongong        Aus           15            EIR                    Inert (Claudius)
RollCall              UK             ?             Free Company      "Ordinary"
Lance and Arrow Aus           24            Tupi                   "Ordinary"
Britcon              Uk            10            Burgundian Ord     Inert (Charles the Bold) - it was also second

I'll have a look at Book 4 tonight/tomorrow and try and cobble together a sample Teutonic list (its not one I know) - I'll check back on the Lists (DBMM TNE) as to what the Teutonic Knights are most likely to be come Bk 4 revision (sure there has been some discussion) - Dont bank on Reg Bg - I am assuming there are 4 Reg Art pieces and/or WWg to get your Regular dump.
 


Regards



David Mather
 

[nftaylor]

The Teutonics can't get a PIP dump at present so the Inert general is more of a problem. If the new Book 4 allows a Regular Baggage command then it would become a very good army!

Niall

[DaveMather]

Niall

Thanks - no point doing a list then if it aint got the PIP dump.

As the winner at Britcon with the Burgundian - care to assist with list/thoughts behind it.

Regards


David Mather

[nftaylor]

I've not got my list handy but basically, two large commands of Kn(O) and Bw(S) (and sundry other bits and bobs) under Sub Generals. Charles himself with a command of 4 Kn and a command of artillery behind TF as a PIP dump. The Sub Generals had about 14 Kn(O) between them.

The idea was to be aggressive (Ag 4 really helps) with the two sub generals commands. With 4 dice the chances are I'd get something reasonable for those two and I could use the free SG PIP to help here. Charles would get the third highest dice but only had one troop type to move so hopefully that would be enough.

Generally it worked very well. The Sub Generals did usually get enough PIPs and 14 Kn(O) is a pretty good punch. Of course you've got to get the right matchups and be lucky where you don't. Fortunately for me I got both! The good matchups were against Ancient Britons and Early Imperial Roman. Neither army could really stand up to the Kn charge. The lucky games were against Ian Mackay's Hungarians where his flank march failed to arrive and Dave Thompson's Ordonnance where my Kn(O) comprehensively beat his Kn(O) in a pretty straight fight. My other two games were draws and interestingly both were where I was the defender.

We had some debate over whether you were better with Bw(X) or Bw(S) archers. I had gone for Bw(S) as being more flexible. Dave T had Bw(X) as being better in combat (and you can get more of them). I think there are arguments both ways and there's not much in it.

As for Charles, his inertness was not much of a problem with four Regular commands and an army that basically charged. I wouldn't want to try it with three commands, irregulars or a manuver army.

Niall

[landmeister]

Sorry, I don't know what's happening at TNE, but who and why is deciding which armies can or cannot have a fourth tran command? 

Everr army had to have Bagage in DBM. Now Bge elements depend on the figures representning it (animal herds, slaves, tents, etc). Why can't a Teutonic have a Baggage command?

Please, excuse my ignorance again.

Thank you.

[DaveMather]

Its a Regular Baggage Command that is important to what we have been discussing - Everyone will have Baggage but only a select few will have Regular Baggage

Phil - who at the end of the day has the final say - originally limited Regular Baggage in a sweeping statement to being for Romans and Byzantines - you will find reference to this scattered round this forum and the Yahoo List site  -

What constitutes regular as opposed to irregular is something to do with sutlers. (do an advanced search on the DBMM YahooList for sutler)
so basically you need comply with the definition of Regulars on page 4 coupled with some CMOT Dibbler types to run the show.   

In the Book 3 revision so far (nearing publication) a few others crept in Korean, Chinese, Khitan Liao all have Reg Bg and thus can utilise the PIP dump we have been discussing. (Spanish allies in the Mayan List also have Reg Bg but that will not do for a pip dump )

Who else is unknown - there is a post that implies Alexander might and Spartans might but only might (because PB didnt dismiss the suggestion)  nothing else is certain till the Books get revised - Book 2 first cut is probably 6-10 weeks away - I suspect your Teutons are a good 6-8 months away from knowing - I think the order of revision is 3, 2, 4, 1.

Patience I am afraid

David Mather

[landmeister]

I see. Thank you for the info 

[bunwin63]

In the absence of a regular train command, a regular command that you don't intend to do much with, eg a central or reserve command of foot, could also be useful as a pip dump

[madmike1]

I didn?t realise before the importance of regular baggage over irregular baggage, to date in the games we have been playing we have just assumed that everyone can dump the lowest die into the baggage command. 

The issue of whether or not an army has regular or irregular baggage seems to be a big one.   I am surprised there isn?t already a listing available of which armies are impacted as the list of ?regular baggage? armies would seem to be very small compared to ?irregular baggage? armies.   

I have done a quick calculation and an army that has a regular baggage PIP dump has on average of almost +1 PIP (actually +0.833 PIP to be exact) each turn per command over an army with irreg baggage.     

[Doug M.]

Note, that it is not 'Baggage' per se, but 'Train' so Art, WWg etc and at least 4 elements. An army with say 4 cheap Art(I) could use it as a dump.

regards

Doug

[toby]

I didn?t realise before the importance of regular baggage over irregular baggage, to date in the games we have been playing we have just assumed that everyone can dump the lowest die into the baggage command. 

The issue of whether or not an army has regular or irregular baggage seems to be a big one.   I am surprised there isn?t already a listing available of which armies are impacted as the list of ?regular baggage? armies would seem to be very small compared to ?irregular baggage? armies.   

I have done a quick calculation and an army that has a regular baggage PIP dump has on average of almost +1 PIP (actually +0.833 PIP to be exact) each turn per command over an army with irreg baggage.     

Yup - regular train is a real steal - possibly one of the best bargins in the entire game and possibly also horribly broken in terms of AP cost. Some people have been using it to ameliorate the effects of inert generals.

Most people will not get regular baggage - its very much the exception.

Note that it only has to be train - look for armies with more than 4 regular artillery or warwagons as well. Plenty of late mediaevals get a bunch of organ guns and most eastern armies have enough artillery to qualify.

[Doug M.]

But the trick is to ensure the army otherwise has Regular Generals! I have thought about something like L. Hungarian with a WWg Train command. All it could do was trundle forward, (not unhistorical).

regards

Doug