Recoling questions

[landmeister]

Dear all,

This is my last DBMM obsession: recoiling on friends/enemies. They are DRAMATICALLY different in DBMM. This is what I've collected from the rules and I would appreciate everyone's opinion. Elephants and Baggage (F) or (I) are not considered.

My element can't complete its recoil because it contacts:

1. Another friendly element facing the same direction: pass through it or push back when apllicable.
2. Another friendly element facing any other direction: it recoils until it's rear edge or rear corner contacts it.
3. Another enemy element facing any direction: it recoils until it's rear edge or rear corner contacts it.

My element can't initiate its recoil because:

1. Another friendly element is currently in contact with its rear and facing the same direction: pass through it or push back when apllicable.
2. Another friendly element is currently in contact with its rear and facing the same direction: element destroyed.
3. Another enemy element is currently in contact with its rear and facing any direction: element destroyed.

Thank you very much in advance

[Hammy]

My element can't complete its recoil because it contacts:

1. Another friendly element facing the same direction: pass through it or push back when apllicable.
2. Another friendly element facing any other direction: it recoils until it's rear edge or rear corner contacts it.
3. Another enemy element facing any direction: it recoils until it's rear edge or rear corner contacts it.

All correct IMO

My element can't initiate its recoil because:

1. Another friendly element is currently in contact with its rear and facing the same direction: pass through it or push back when apllicable.

Correct IMO

2. Another friendly element is currently in contact with its rear and facing the same direction: element destroyed.

Wrong, the element that can't recoil suffers a -1 in combat and is only destroyed if it would be destroyed otherwise. Friends blocking recoils are far less of a problem in DBMM

3. Another enemy element is currently in contact with its rear and facing any direction: element destroyed.

Wrong, much the same as 2 above. The element that can't recoil suffers a -1 in combat and is only destroyed if it would be destroyed otherwise. Enemy blocking recoils only cause you to be destroyed if they are in frontal contact with you.

This has gotten me thinking (a dangerous thing). What happens if you recoil and end with your rear edge in frontal contact with enemy that you weren't in contact with at the start of the recoil? I don't have my rules to hand but this could well be an interesting if unusual situation.

Hammy

[landmeister]

2. Another friendly element is currently in contact with its rear and facing the same direction: element destroyed.

Wrong, the element that can't recoil suffers a -1 in combat and is only destroyed if it would be destroyed otherwise. Friends blocking recoils are far less of a problem in DBMM

Sorry, what I wanted to say is that the friendly element is facing ANY OTHER direction (ie, not the same as recoiler's)

3. Another enemy element is currently in contact with its rear and facing any direction: element destroyed.

Wrong, much the same as 2 above. The element that can't recoil suffers a -1 in combat and is only destroyed if it would be destroyed otherwise. Enemy blocking recoils only cause you to be destroyed if they are in frontal contact with you.

Sorry, but what you mean by "destroyed otherwise"? Do you mean those cases listed on COMBAT OUTCOMES?

This has gotten me thinking (a dangerous thing). What happens if you recoil and end with your rear edge in frontal contact with enemy that you weren't in contact with at the start of the recoil? I don't have my rules to hand but this could well be an interesting if unusual situation.

Hammy

I would say that you simply recoil until contact is done and the, next turn, if no frontal contact is renewed, just turni 180? and fight against it. Right?

[Hammy]

Wrong, the element that can't recoil suffers a -1 in combat and is only destroyed if it would be destroyed otherwise. Friends blocking recoils are far less of a problem in DBMM

Sorry, what I wanted to say is that the friendly element is facing ANY OTHER direction (ie, not the same as recoiler's)

OK, tries again. In DBMM if an element can recoil even 1 micron it suffers no penalty and if forced to recoil will simply recoil as far as it can then stop. A recoiling element can push back friends facing in the same direction but other than that it can't push back anything even light troops. If you start a combat with something blocking your recoil you suffer a -1 in the combat but unless you have enemy in frontal contact with your flank or rear you are not destroyed on a loss unless that result would kill you anyway say Pk beaten by Bd in the Bd's bound.

3. Another enemy element is currently in contact with its rear and facing any direction: element destroyed.

Wrong, much the same as above. The element that can't recoil suffers a -1 in combat and is only destroyed if it would be destroyed otherwise. Enemy blocking recoils only cause you to be destroyed if they are in frontal contact with you.

Sorry, but what you mean by "destroyed otherwise"? Do you mean those cases listed on COMBAT OUTCOMES?

Yes, if a Pk is beaten by a Bd in the Bd's bound the Pk is destroyed. If the Pk can't recoil because of any obstruction then it fights at -1 which increases the chance of it being beaten but unless it is the Bd's bound the Pk will not die unless doubled.

Also note that for an enemy element to be in contact with your rear it must either have moved into frontal contact with your rear or you must have recoiled into it in a previous bound as you cannot as far as I can tell move to side edge to rear edge contact with enemy.

Hammy

[Hammy]

I would say that you simply recoil until contact is done and the, next turn, if no frontal contact is renewed, just turni 180? and fight against it. Right?

Yep that's right it's pretty clear cut, I think james just forgot it's not dbm

Err, why?

If my element recoils and ends it's recoil in rear to front contact with one of your elements (assuming I don't die which is I think the case) then where in the rules does it say I turn round? Surely in the next combat round I fight with you against my rear. Unless of course I am allowed to spend a PIP to turn round and negate the fact you hit me in the rear before having to roll the combat.

Hammy

[landmeister]

If my element recoils and ends it's recoil in rear to front contact with one of your elements (assuming I don't die which is I think the case) then where in the rules does it say I turn round? Surely in the next combat round I fight with you against my rear. Unless of course I am allowed to spend a PIP to turn round and negate the fact you hit me in the rear before having to roll the combat.

Hammy

Dear Hammy. Let me express my most sincere gratitude for your detailed explanation  . Why doesn't Phil write rules set as clear as you?  . But this lead me to two new questions:

1. What happens when my recoiler contacts your front BUT they are not in corner to corner contact? I would say there will not be any combat unless you in your bound or me in my bound spend a PIP to line up. Right?
2. Where in the rules say that an attack on the rear is enough to kill someone without doubling it? I want to compare that rule with the other specifiying that you can recoil against an obstacle until the end of times without dying. 

Thank you very much again. This forum is infinitely more useful for newbies than the DBMMlist 

[Platypus]

1. What happens when my recoiler contacts your front BUT they are not in corner to corner contact? I would say there will not be any combat unless you in your bound or me in my bound spend a PIP to line up. Right?

Not quite. You don't have to spend a PIP. You get the free move to line up. See p33. Note that this can happen in either side's bound.

2. Where in the rules say that an attack on the rear is enough to kill someone without doubling it? I want to compare that rule with the other specifiying that you can recoil against an obstacle until the end of times without dying. 

p38, immediately under "If an element's total is less than..." (and repeated on p39)
"Destroyed......with an enemy front edge... in edge and corner-to-corner contact with its rear"

So this bit is under COMBAT OUTCOME on p38, rather than under RECOILING ELEMENTS on p40. In fact, nothing in the recoiling section says anything about being destroyed, because that is all covered in the COMBAT OUTCOME section.

Thank you very much again. This forum is infinitely more useful for newbies than the DBMMlist 

Well, I _can_ be friendly there as well ;-)

Cheers,
JohnG