Author Topic: Guides stratagem.  (Read 5778 times)

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garyjomtien

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Guides stratagem.
« on: February 26, 2019, 02:43:32 AM »
I am interested to try the Guides stratagem.

Can members share how it works, the pitfalls and advantages?

Many thanks.

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 11:34:47 AM »
It works as described in the rules, i.e. it gives you a secret road through certain terrain, with a 1 in 6 chance of it petering out half way across, and it can only be used if you are the invader.

The main difficulty in practice in trying to use it is: roads only help your movement if you are march moving entirely along the road. Not when you are making tactical moves along it, not when you move onto it and not when you move off it.

If the enemy happens to have some troops within 400p of the road, that will usually prevent march moves so your secret road will be useless.

If you can march  move, the sequence will be:

1 move at (off-road) difficult going speed to get you from outside the terrain to inside the terrain on the road.
1 or more moves at road speed to get to the end of the road at the opposite edge of the terrain.
1 move at (off road) good going speed provided all the moving elements end outside the terrain.
(If you have a long column, it may take multiple moves at difficult going speed before they can all end outside the terrain)

You can speed things up a bit by starting with at least the front element deployed on the road, or by linking your secret road into a normal road.

The bottom line is it is difficult to do, but if you do manage to pull it off it can be a real shock for your opponent.



 

Neil Williamson

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 09:31:03 PM »
Can LH use a guide stratagem in a craggy hill?
I checked the rules section and back in 2008 there was a discussion on what happens if the guide disappears halfway through with the LH stuck in impassable terrain.
However, I wonder given the information above if the LH could actually enter the terrain in the first place to find the road.
comments welcome

Fon Tok Nak

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 04:28:26 PM »
Your query demonstrates why roads should be treated as good going.

Since the road in the stratagem extends to the edge of the terrain, any element can go from outside the terrain to inside on the road entirely in good going. Thus, the terrain becomes passable for all of your troops, giving the stratagem value.

Anthony

Neil Williamson

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2019, 10:34:21 PM »
Hi Anthony,
I quite agree with you. I've been playing for almost one year now and up to a few weeks ago I always assumed that roads are good going. To me that was intuitive.
However, the rules don't say that and there is a good rationale for it in this forum. I wish it was more explicit in the rule book complete with a rationale as it can appear counter intuitive.
So, I think that Lawrence's interpretation above is correct.
Cheers
Neil

Fon Tok Nak

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2019, 04:24:53 AM »
Neil,

I agree that it is intuitive for roads to be good going and there are several road-related rules that reinforce that supposition.

For example, the guides stratagem states that after getting lost the remainder of the crossing counts as in difficult going, which implies that when not lost, troops on one's road are not in difficult going.

Furthermore, the use of 'counts' implies that troops not normally able to cross a craggy hill can do so using a guide and can get out at difficult terrain speed (rather than becomes immobilised) if they get lost.

Also, the point of having a guide is that he knows where the road is; he doesn't need to enter the difficult terrain to find it so can lead your men directly on to it from the good going outside.
.
I think the idea that roads are not good going is a hangover from earlier rules sets, so I wouldn't trust any thread prior to 2013, and ideally not prior to 2016 when the latest rules came out. In short, I would always treat roads as good going but be aware that a veteran player might challenge this.

Anthony

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2019, 08:50:38 AM »
Roads are not good going.

They enable you to march move at higher speed through whatever going they pass through.

I agree the "guide route" road would be difficult going if the guide got lost so you could get through a craggy hill. Craggy hills are rare, though.

It is difficult to get good value out of the guides stratagem.

Fon Tok Nak

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2019, 03:02:47 PM »
Hi Lawrence,

Roads are intuitively good going. If they are not, I'd expect an explicit rule stating such, but there isn't, so on the intuitive level, roads are good going.

The way the rules read supports this and the Guides stratagem is a case in point.

If it were necessary to enter the difficult going to get on to the road, the rule would say that the road starts just inside the terrain. However, it says the road starts at the edge of the terrain, so it is possible to get on to the road without entering the terrain. And being able to get on to the road without entering the terrain means the road is not difficult going, so it is good going.

Why do you say roads are not good going?

Anthony

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2019, 05:50:36 PM »
Page 19:

"Water features, roads and frontier walls are linear features; all other terrain features are area features."

so roads are linear features.

"Area features are classed by going."   so roads, not being area features, are not classified by going.

As added confirmation, roads are not included in the list of features that are good going:

"Good going, of relatively bare gentle hills [GH], or cultivated open fields [F], or water features, boggy ground or
marsh frozen by cold weather. The space between features is also good going and represents unimproved pasture,
steppe or hard desert with any folds in the ground and vegetation too minor to conceal bodies of troops."

Incidentally, this does classify water features, which are linear features, as good going if they are frozen.

The final paragraph on this page, about roads, does not say that a road is good going for movement purposes, but it does say "Combat counts as in the going on its edges."

Furthermore, on page 29 the movement rate for march moving along a road is not the same as the rate for march moving in good going.

While it may be intuitive that roads should be good going, the rules as written don't back this up. In practice a road is a feature that modifies the march movement rate for whatever going it is passing through, but has no effect on tactical move rate. The rationale for this is that in tactical formation, many of the troops are off the road, in the surrounding terrain.

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2019, 05:51:41 PM »
It can be annoying that some of the DBMM rules are not intuitive, but they are what they are.

Fon Tok Nak

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2019, 04:04:33 AM »
The rules are what people want them to be (which can lead to all sorts of silliness, such as discussion of off-table fortifications around the off-table part of a BUA).

I find Phil’s rules generally intuitive. Points that are counter-intuitive are articulated even if Phil’s minimalist style is not always helpful.

Regarding roads specifically, I think it is useful to consider road rules together and ask whether they make more or less sense when roads are treated as good going.

First, the top half of p. 19 is about area features, so I would be surprised if there were any reference to roads before the specific ‘Roads’ paragraph. However, it is interesting to note that not only roads but also the 40 paces from the edge of a BUA is not listed as good going. Everybody I know plays the 40 paces as good going.

Second, the last sentence on p. 19 actually implies that roads are good going. If we accept that roads are good going, when enemies meet on a road, it would be reasonable to assume that the combat is in good going. In fact, the terrain by the edges of the road determines the going for combat purposes, so the sentence becomes necessary (i.e. the counter-intuitive point is articulated).

If we accept that roads are not good going, then the sentence would not be necessary (and so not in the rules).

Third, the notion that troops on roads are also spread out on either side when moving is imaginative but not backed up by the rules. If it were true, groups would be able to move through difficult terrain in lines, but they are not. Furthermore, the rules state that a group moving in column through difficult terrain “is assumed to be following a track” (p. 29).

If such a track and a road are treated as the same, then an element on a track can march move at the special road speed in any direction through difficult terrain, which would make the ‘Guides’ stratagem (and difficult terrain) pointless. To me, it makes more sense to treat a comparatively wide, straight, purpose-built, all-weather paved road as different to a forest track. Thus, troops following the track move at difficult terrain speed while those astride the road get good going speed.

Fourth, the special road speed when marching does not stop roads from being good going. The rules abound with special cases (which give the rules their depth), for example, the ability of blade (X) to quick kill knights or the ability of Bedouins to fight well in sand storms.

Fifth, the ‘Mud’ rule on p. 25 is intuitive and indicates that it is the condition of the road itself that determines speed along it, not that of the edge terrain. Indeed, for the word ‘converts’ in the rule to make sense, the road must be good going before becoming mud. Furthermore, I cannot see how a paved road, which is not affected by mud, can somehow be deemed ‘rough’ or ‘difficult’.

Finally, a BUA on a hill can get a free access road to the bottom of the hill. If the road is treated as good going, it facilitates movement in and out of a BUA on a rough or difficult hill. However, if it is treated as rough or difficult going, it has no effect. In other words, it becomes pointless.

I believe that Phil has put in many years of effort to develop the rules as they are now, so I am sure that any pointless rules would have been cut long ago. Consequently, I find an interpretation of something that renders one or more rules pointless as questionable at best and silly at worst.

Anthony

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2019, 11:31:13 AM »
Quote
Second, the last sentence on p. 19 actually implies that roads are good going. If we accept that roads are good going, when enemies meet on a road, it would be reasonable to assume that the combat is in good going. In fact, the terrain by the edges of the road determines the going for combat purposes, so the sentence becomes necessary (i.e. the counter-intuitive point is articulated).

If we accept that roads are not good going, then the sentence would not be necessary (and so not in the rules).

It would be necessary to tell us that combat does not count as in, for example, the terrain under the centreline of the road, or the terrain under the piece of road directly under the element if the element is crossing the road.

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2019, 12:10:30 PM »
Quote
Third, the notion that troops on roads are also spread out on either side when moving is imaginative but not backed up by the rules. If it were true, groups would be able to move through difficult terrain in lines, but they are not.


That does not follow. The columns rule might be there to reflect the difficulty of co-ordinating movement along a wide front in difficult going. This view is consistent with the rule allowing wide groups to move into combat in difficult going.

Quote
Furthermore, the rules state that a group moving in column through difficult terrain “is assumed to be following a track” (p. 29).

If such a track and a road are treated as the same, then an element on a track can march move at the special road speed in any direction through difficult terrain, which would make the ‘Guides’ stratagem (and difficult terrain) pointless. To me, it makes more sense to treat a comparatively wide, straight, purpose-built, all-weather paved road as different to a forest track. Thus, troops following the track move at difficult terrain speed while those astride the road get good going speed.

They are treated differently. One gives you faster march moves, the other does not. Also following a road allows clumsy elements to deviate from straight ahead without paying an extra PIP.  Just because they are treated differently in these aspects does not imply that every aspect is different. Nor does it imply that they must be good going.

LawrenceG1

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2019, 12:32:57 PM »
Quote
Fourth, the special road speed when marching does not stop roads from being good going. The rules abound with special cases (which give the rules their depth), for example, the ability of blade (X) to quick kill knights or the ability of Bedouins to fight well in sand storms.

It does not stop them from being good going.  However, it does mean they are not identical to good going. That gives us reason to at least treat the assumption that they are good going with a pinch of salt.

Quote

Fifth, the ‘Mud’ rule on p. 25 is intuitive and indicates that it is the condition of the road itself that determines speed along it, not that of the edge terrain. Indeed, for the word ‘converts’ in the rule to make sense, the road must be good going before becoming mud. Furthermore, I cannot see how a paved road, which is not affected by mud, can somehow be deemed ‘rough’ or ‘difficult’.

That is one of the genuinely decent arguments in favour of roads being good going. The other one is the assumption that the unspecified going at the edge of a BUA is good going.

Quote

Finally, a BUA on a hill can get a free access road to the bottom of the hill. If the road is treated as good going, it facilitates movement in and out of a BUA on a rough or difficult hill. However, if it is treated as rough or difficult going, it has no effect. In other words, it becomes pointless.

Not pointless as it still affects march movement, especially if it links into internal roads in the BUA, or other external roads.

Orcoteuthis

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Re: Guides stratagem.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 07:44:04 PM »
As added confirmation, roads are not included in the list of features that are good going:

"Good going, of relatively bare gentle hills [GH], or cultivated open fields [F], or water features, boggy ground or
marsh frozen by cold weather. The space between features is also good going and represents unimproved pasture,
steppe or hard desert with any folds in the ground and vegetation too minor to conceal bodies of troops."

Incidentally, this does classify water features, which are linear features, as good going if they are frozen.

That list clearly isn't exhaustive, though, as unfrozen water is also good going in some circumstances, as per p20.
Andreas Johansson