Author Topic: Question about turning to face enemy close combat  (Read 2582 times)

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landmeister

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Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« on: March 17, 2019, 02:03:23 PM »
I didn't find any clarification at the Commentary about the following situation so I guess it's so evident that I simply can't see at the rules. Let's assume a three elements wide Cv group contacts the flank of a four elements deep LH column. Only one of the moving Cv group is required to legally line up on the side edge of one element of the column. All other moving elements will not be line up to their opponents flanks as per required on p. 33, obviously

My question is what happens with all those elements contacted on those side edges that cannot turn to combat due to not being properly lined up once the movement phase is over and before close combat occurs. Do they remain so until any player spends pips in future bounds to line up?

Is it so evident that no entry at the Commentary is considered?

Thank you
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LawrenceG1

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2019, 11:22:43 PM »
It's not evident and hopefully will be addressed in the next issue of the commentary.

For the time being one has to apply the rules as written as best one can, in particular:

An element initiating close combat against a flank " must end in mutual front corner contact"

"An element or group in edge contact but not already lined-up as specified above must ... immediately move (expending no PIPs) the minimum extra up to 80p needed to end lined up with an enemy edge..."

"It is an absolute requirement that troops that would move into close combat in real life must do so in the game. Geometric ploys cannot be used to prevent enemy contact. A move is cancelled (and its PIPs lost) if either a friendly element at least partially in front of the moving element, or any element that is in close combat or providing rear support, obstructs the moving element's lining up in contact. Otherwise, any obstructing element must immediately be moved PIP-free (and ignoring any TZ restrictions) out of the way; by moving it the minimum
necessary distance either backwards and/or behind another, shifting sideways or pivoting."


I suggest that you apply the extra move to line up (EMTLU) to the attacking elements one at a time, and if one is obstructed from lining up one way, move it the opposite way (e.g. to the left instead of to the right), shifting other elements that are not yet correctly lined up to the side to make room if possible, otherwise backwards.



landmeister

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 07:57:39 AM »
Ok. Thank you.
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LawrenceG1

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2019, 09:54:16 AM »
An alternative opinion from "Anthony" on the Yahoo DBMMlist group:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DBMMlist/conversations/messages/184863

---In DBMMlist@yahoogroups.com, <carla_tong@...> wrote (message number 184863 :

This is a reply to landmeister on the DBMM Forum, but as it is taking weeks for my request to join to get approval, I have given up waiting and am posting my comments here.



The question is about turning to face when a line hits a column.



Let’s say a Cv line hits a Ps column. Upon hitting the column, the Cv make their EMTLU such that the one on the end of the line first contacting a Ps is front corner to front corner with that Ps. Each Ps then turns to face the Cv on its flank. The Cv line does not break up and every Ps contacted turns. This looks right. This feels right. And, no surprise, this is right when following the rules.



If the same Cv line hits something else, like a Lh column *exactly* the same happens, but for some reason, this situation creates headaches, so let’s look at exactly what the rules say.



(1) P. 33 Flank edge: The *initiating* element … must end in mutual front corner to front corner contact .. (emphasis added)



Please note, *not* each and/or every element, *only* the initiating element, i.e. the element in a group that contacts the enemy first. One end of a line should contact the column fractionally before the rest. If it is too close to call, I think most people would go with the one contacting towards the front of the column.



(2) P. 33 EMTLU: An element or *group* … must … end lined up with an enemy *edge* … (emphasis added)



Note, firstly, this means the group gets one EMTLU, *not* each and/or every element, so the group must move as one; *it does not break up*.   And secondly, there is no obligation for each and every element to end lined up front corner to front corner; the first (initiating) one must, but the second, third and so on just have to be in line with an enemy edge, again, *not* corner-to-corner.



(3) P. 35 Turning to face: Any element … only contacted on its flank edge by enemy elements’ front edge(s) … turns … into full front edge contact with whichever contacted it first …



Please note that there is nothing about corner-to-corner. Once the first element has achieved this, corner-to-corner is *done*; everything now is about front-edge-to-side-edge.



You will also note that the rule talks in plurals (elements’ not element’s, and edges(s) not edge). Thus, there is the expectation that two or more enemy front edges may be in contact with one side edge, as will happen when a Cv line contacts an Lh column.



By following this instruction, the line will remain in place and each element in the column will turn to face in order, either ending in front edge combat or behind another (as per the next para. on p. 35).



Consequently, if three Cv hit four Lh (and assuming the lead Cv contacts the lead Lh), then first, the Cv will line up such that the first is front-corner-to-front-corner with the first Lh and the other two move with it so as to be contacting Lh flank edges. Then, the Lh will turn – first into front edge combat with the first Cv, second behind that, third on to second Cv, and last on to last Cv.



The Cv do not make separate moves and their line does not break up. At the same time, every Lh contacted turns to face and none remain facing forward. As in the Ps case, this looks right, feels right, and, dare I say it, is right.



Anthony
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 10:04:31 AM by LawrenceG1 »

LawrenceG1

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2019, 10:02:24 AM »
If you use Anthony's scheme you will often find that in practice all the attacking elements hit at exactly the same moment so you will need to adopt some convention for deciding which element a defender will turn to face when its flank is in contact with two attacking front edges. I suggest the one its front corner is in contact with.

landmeister

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2019, 10:01:52 AM »
That page 35 part sounds really interesting. It doesn't say a flank contact must include a front corner contact too. I think I (we?) have been missing that since 2007. What do you think?
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LawrenceG1

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2019, 10:44:10 PM »
Well the text on p.35  says:
Quote
Turning to Face Flank or Rear contact (Figs 12a-h)
Any element except train, Boats or Expendables that has been so contacted only on its flank edge by enemy elements' front edge(s),
(my emphasis)

which is slightly different to how Anthony quoted it
Quote
Any element … only contacted on its flank edge by enemy elements’ front edge(s) …

The word "so" refers to the paragraph at the top of p.35 , i.e.

Quote
Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, or remains in, front edge contact with an enemy element
(or an intervening fortification or PO it is defending behind) in any of the ways described in MOVING INTO
CLOSE COMBAT on page 33. This is called being in front edge combat.

The question is what exactly is " in any of the ways described in MOVING INTO CLOSE COMBAT on page 33." referring to?

Is it referring only  to
(a)
Quote
An element can move into close combat by a tactical or spontaneous move, a march allowed to contact enemy or
pressing forward; or in either side's bound by pursuing, or adjusting an existing contact with an enemy flank or
enemy contacting its own flank.

Or to
(b)
Quote
Front edge. Both front corners of the initiating element must end touching the enemy front corners...
Flank edge. ...It must end in mutual front corner contact ...
Rear edge. The initiating element must ... end with both front corners touching enemy rear corners.
Corner.  The initiating element must be part of a group that moved only straight forward ...

There is also the question of whether "An element can move into close combat... The initiating element..."

(a)  implies that only one element of a moving group is "the initiating element"  and it initiates the close combat on behalf of all its friends in the group.

or

(b) implies that every individual element must initiate its own close combat and the text "the intiating element" is to distinguish this element from the element against which the close combat is initiated,


In both cases the generally accepted understanding has always been (b).
Hence you could say we all missed (a) and for the purposes of lines contacting columns in the flank,  assuming that (a) is correct gives a better result on the table.



LawrenceG1

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2019, 10:47:02 PM »
By the way, a few other people I know have suggested that the elements of the column should turn to face whichever element the largest part of their flank edge is in contact with.

landmeister

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2019, 04:37:04 PM »
A very interesting topic. When will it be included to the new Commentary?
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LawrenceG1

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Re: Question about turning to face enemy close combat
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2019, 12:26:38 PM »
Should be included next time we update it. Hopefully some time this year.