Pecheneg 3/47

[Neil Williamson]

Towards the end of the historical notes and special rules is this phrase
"War wagons or foot must all be in the same command as all the baggage"
I'm asking for an interpretation of this rule.

You can have 0 to 2 baggage per general and a max of 3 generals. So a maximum of 6 baggage.

I presume that the rule on page 14 re additional troops to the baggage in the army baggage command do not apply. The min number of foot or wagons is 8.
I also presume that the army cannot have army baggage as this is a separate command and the baggage must be in the foot/wagon command.

Is the increase in morale added to
1. Just the individual commands ie 2 + 2 + 2
2. The foot/wagon command ie all 6
3. Both the individual commands and the foot/wagon command 2 + 2 and 6 in the foot/wagon
4. The individual commands plus the army as a whole in the way that army baggage works.
Ie 2 + 2 + 2 and 6 added to the whole army

If you take less than 4 baggage, say just 3, then normally you couldn't form an army baggage command. Just thought I'd through that one in to complicate matters a bit more.

And finally, does the CiC have to command the foot/wagon command as other army's CiC have to command the army baggage? My presumption is no as there is no army baggage command.

[Fon Tok Nak]

For Pecheneg, think Custer. A command of wagons defended by men on foot under the control of the CnC. But unlike Custer (who split his force and sent his subordinate off elsewhere), you get subordinates with your mounted on the table.

The notes at the end of the blurb need to be taken literally.

You must take foot. The foot must be with all the baggage. Therefore, you have two choices (a) a baggage command (which can be defended with TF) and all the foot in that command, or (b) baggage in only one normal command (i.e. one command with command baggage and all the foot, and no baggage in the other commands).

If you replace the foot with WWg, the above applies to those WWg (but in the baggage command and you lose the TF option).

Re p. 14, the 'additional troops' rule still applies. Each train element is 1 ME. Each of the allowed troop elements are 0.5 ME, so complying is not a problem (although I concede you would need 4 commands with 2 Bg each to get the full 16 foot in a baggage command, but the list only allows up to 3 commands. That said, you could still take all the foot if you go with (b) above.) If you take WWg instead, they are train, so no problem in a train (i.e. baggage) command.

Moral works as normal. With a baggage command, the other commands get the usual ME benefit. Any foot or WWg in a baggage command add to the ME of the baggage command (and the total of the army in the usual way).

You cannot take 3 baggage. If you follow (a) above, you get 4-6 in a baggage command. If you follow (b), you get 1-2. (I don't think you can go with 0 baggage as I would suggest you have to have at least 1 for the foot to go with.)

For command, if you go with (a), then the CnC (and only the CnC) can use his PiPs on elements in the baggage command as per the rules. If you go with (b), then again as per the rules, that command will have a general but need not be the CnC.

From a tactical point of view, (a) essentially gives you a well-defended baggage command on the edge of the table with all the usual army baggage ME benefits, while (b) enables you to put down an awkward circle of WWg more towards the middle of the table (or a slightly more mobile WWg formation) at the cost of those benefits.

Anthony

[Neil Williamson]

Thank you for the prompt reply Anthony.

I must admit I had not thought of the "baggage command" as you suggest. I was thinking of a command with baggage in it.

I understand and follow your logic and thank you for the time you have taken to go through it.

My specific problem in designing this list is that I was wanting to take 3 commands, 20 x LH(F), 20 x LH(S), and 14 x WWg.
Originally I was going to run some (3) command fast baggage with the 2 LH commands. Then I read this rule about baggage.

So basically you're saying I can't do it as 3 baggage is not allowed in the baggage command. However, this argument does assume that the baggage command follows the rules of the army baggage command.
I also cannot run 4 baggage with the war wagons as the ME of the wagons is greater than the ME of the baggage train.
In fact I can't run war wagons at all with them "looking after" the LH baggage as I could then only have 2 war wagons (4ME) to match the ME of the baggage. Even if I put in 2 baggage for the war wagon command then I can only have 3 WWg but there is a compulsory minimum of 8.

In fact the only possibility is to run 2 baggage as command baggage with the war wagon command. The war wagon command certainly do not need the morale boost so I'd rather run with zero baggage. I did not understand why you thought I might not be able to run with zero baggage.

You could well be correct in your interpretation, but I'm still not sure that the baggage command follows the army baggage command rules.
The foot option seems to fit in better with that interpretation, but not the war wagon option due to the compulsory minimum of 8.

In case there was no reply here I was leaning towards this interpretation

1. Each command can have a command baggage in the normal way boosting their morale.
2. The physical location of the baggage is transferred to the war wagon command for safe keeping and operates under that general's pips.
3. There can be no army baggage command nor any army wide morale boost

I welcome any further thoughts

[LawrenceG1]

The rules say:

4 or more baggage elements can form an extra Army Baggage Command with no general, which can
also include TF, other train and also foot elements of equal or less total ME (see p42) than the train.

So you can have an army baggage command of 4-6 baggage and as many warwagons as you like (WWg are Train, as Anthony said), or 4-6 baggage and 8-X foot (where X = 2 times the number of baggage) as they are all 0.5 ME.

Alternatively, one of the generals can have 1-2 command baggage plus the warwagons or as many foot as you like, but then the other generals cannot have baggage, foot or warwagons.

Given your original scheme of 2 LH commands plus one of war wagons, you might as well drop the number of warwagons slightly to buy more LH instead of extra baggage. 10 WWg will probably be just as effective as 14 in achieving whatever mission you have in mind for them. WWg in an army baggage command will be almost impossible to move, so I suggest 1 general with 4 LH, 2 Bge and 10-ish WWg; and 2 generals with the remaining LH split between them would be pretty close to achieving what you want. Note: every general's command must have 4 elements of foot or mounted (train do not count towards this) totalling at least 4ME.

[LawrenceG1]

By the way, this thread probably belongs in the Armies: Book 3 sub-forum.

[Neil Williamson]

OMG How much I wish there was a comma in the rules. It would have saved me hours of thinking about it.

I understood page 14 as "..Army baggage command... which can include TF, other train and also other foot elements of equal or less total ME..." as  meaning the other train as also subject to the ME restriction. If there was a comma after train there wouldn't be this ambiguity.

I've got it now and thank you both very much for your input.
The only bit I didn't understand Lawrence was why if i created an army baggage command would it be difficult to move?
Wouldn't I just have a command of the CiC with 4LH, sat behind an army baggage command of 4-6 Baggage (F) and all my war wagons? The CiC would spend its pips primarily on moving the wagons up.


Just as a bit of background this army is for a tournament at Easter. I just wanted to expand my LH army and develop some more Steppe armies. Originally I wasn't going to have any baggage, I've never bothered with it. I then just wondered about what was fast baggage for. I thought it would be interesting to throw it into the front line as bait to help put pressure on troops hiding in terrain with its causing impetuosity rule. I thought some fast baggage with each LH command would do the job.

Its not ideal but seeing as I've bought the models I'll have 2 in a Command Baggage with the war wagons. They could still run off separately if need be or even be picked up by the CiC.

So I'm going with
C1 CiC 15LH(F) 5CV(O)
C2 SC 20LH(S)
C3 SC 5LH(F) 12WWg 2Bg(F)
Feigned Flight

I'm happy to move this to book 3 section but I don't know how   

[LawrenceG1]

The only bit I didn't understand Lawrence was why if i created an army baggage command would it be difficult to move?

See page 27.

Command difficulty applies if moving troops of an army baggage command.
Unresponsive troops counts once for moving troops of an army baggage command unless the whole command is moving in a single column.

Unresponsive troops also counts for moving train (except (F) and this is cumulative with the above.
Plus the original 1 PIP to move in in the first place.

So you need 4 PIPS to move. That's a 50% chance of not moving at all (or 33% if the CinC is part of the group).  So "almost impossible" was an exaggeration, but it is much easier if they are not part of the army baggage as then it only costs 1 extra PIP instead of 3 extra.



AFAIK only the forum owner can move threads around, but bear in mind for future reference if you have other queries relating to peculiarities of army lists. In this case the question is about problems with the list in the context of rules, so it's not 100% certain where its natural home is.

[Neil Williamson]

Thanks for that
I like to get in the zone for the army I'm playing and role play.
I feel like I've achieved the "Stupid as a Pecheneg" part 

[Fon Tok Nak]

Note, command difficulty only applies if the CnC is over 2000 paces from the nearest baggage command element being moved. So, it could be 4 PIPs to move but will usually be 3. Still enough to render it fairly immobile as CnC PIPs will also be needed to move stuff in the CnC’s normal command.

Anthony

[LawrenceG1]

Note, command difficulty only applies if the CnC is over 2000 paces from the nearest baggage command element being moved.

The actual rule wording is

1 extra PIP is expended by a move requiring PIPs or a halt, dismounting or mounting for each of:
(a) Command Difficulty
If a march or tactical move or halt by any element or group and the general providing PIPs is any of:
...
• More than 2,000p away if entirely of Light Horse or of naval, or of an army baggage command.

This might mean :

More than 2,000p away if entirely (of Light Horse or of naval, or of an army baggage command).

 

However, there is a comma before the 2nd "or" but not the first one, which implies (on a "balance of probability" basis) :

(More than 2,000p away if (entirely of Light Horse or of naval)), or (of an army baggage command).

  is intended.  Umpires normally understand it that way.

 The sentence constructed doesn't really parse properly for either  interpretation unless more wording is understood, but in the first case, what is the significance of that comma?. 

1 extra PIP is expended by a move requiring PIPs or a halt, dismounting or mounting if a march or tactical move or halt by any element or group and the general providing PIPs is more than 2,000p away if entirely of Light Horse or of naval, or of an army baggage command.

Including all the "understood" words this becomes:

1 extra PIP is expended by a move requiring PIPs or a halt, dismounting or mounting if a march or tactical move or halt by any element or group and the general providing PIPs is more than 2,000p away if [the element or group is] entirely of Light Horse or of naval, or [the move or halt is that] of an army baggage command.

[Fon Tok Nak]

The part about the baggage command is in the 2000 paces list, so the 2000 paces applies to the baggage command. If it did not, the baggage command would have its own bullet point.

That said, if one wants to analyze said bullet, the list after 2000 paces is in the form of A (1) or (2), or B.

In such a list, the comma is necessary to show that B is at a different level to (1) or (2). It does not cut B off from 2000 paces.

In this case, A = elements of a certain troop type (specifically light horse or naval) and B = elements in a certain command type (specifically a baggage command).

Furthermore, for a list to work, omitted words must be the same, so if "the element or group is" has been omitted at A, then that is what is omitted at B. Finally, whatever goes before the list, applies to each item in the list, and each item in the list (or sub-list) is marked (in this case with "of").

Consequently, a full rendition of the bullet would be: "More than 2000 paces away IF (A) the element or group is entirely (1) OF light horse OR (2) OF naval, OR (B) the element or group is OF an army baggage command."

(Words in capitals will (hopefully) make the structure of the bullet clearer.)

Thus, an extra PIP is not automatically expended for command difficulty when moving elements in a baggage command, but only if the CnC is over 2000 paces from the nearest such element being moved.

Anthony