Pressing forward

[landmeister]

Hi all,

I've had the following situation. A mounted element is frontally shot at in its turn, wins and decides to press forward against the shooters. After moving 80 p it cannot frontally contact them but ist flank partially contacts the front of an enemy element just at 90? and corner to corner with the shooters.

Technically the mounted element is: a) crossing the front of this last one WHILE advancing against the frontal shooters simultanoeusly and b) as I said its flank is contacting an enemy front but its front is not contacting anyone.

We finally decided that the press forward move was not possible. Were we right? And what would have happen if the mounted had been impetuous doubling the shooters?

Thank you.

[toby]

I'll have to check the rules.

It is possible to cross a TZ in order to line up with an element that is also TZ'ing you.

[landmeister]

But what happens with the illegal contact? The advancing element is touching an enemy front with its flank and no frontal contact is achieved 

Thank you.

[toby]

Don't forget the extra 80 pace wheel, pivot or slide to move into legal contact.

[landmeister]

Yes, but from a strictly geometrical point of view, the element is exceeding this distanc as it comes in right angles from that side, so no free 80 p is available. This is the big problem!!!

Have you ever seen something like this?

Thank you.

[toby]

You 80 pace move could allow you to slide your flank edge along the front edge the element you have contacted, until you end up in front corner to front corner contact. You the will automatically turn to face (which isn't part of you 80 pace allowance and is covered by a separate section).

If at this point you are actually in frontal contact with the enemy that shot at you (as I think you are in your example), then you would fight them face to face instead I guess.

So basically the pressing forward people have gained 80 paces of movement because of the shooting element at right angles - don't put shooting elements at right angles.

Once you have touched an enemy element you can normally get into contact with it.

[landmeister]

I include a diagram in order to improve the explanation. The grey element is making the press forward move (marked on a dotted line). So the situation is:

1) As soon a the grey element contacts B's right corner is influenced by A and B TZs simultanoeuosly.
2) Its press forward move finishes without contacting A frontally, but contacting B's front with its flank.

As soon as it reaches both enemy TZs it must respect all bullets on page 32, and the first one is the only applicable here. Unfortunately, A is the only element in front of it so CANNOT choose to line up opposite B.

So the question is can this element make an illegal contact with B in order to obey TZ rules?

Thank you.

[DaveMather]

If I had to umpire this I would let you press forward (its your choice)

I agree only TZ bullet 1 applies - so by pressing forward you are not breaching any of these

The element on your flank can now slide into true flank contact as a contacted element - your flank has contacted his front - the TZ rules prevent you from turning to it so the only remaining choice is as below

"EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP IN CLOSE COMBAT OR IN A TZ
A (snip) contacted (snip) element or group that is not lined up moves up to an extra 1 base width (80p) to do so if the extra movement is used only to line up with an enemy (snip) flank (snip) edge (snip) by (a) a sideways shift (big snip). This can be in either side?s bound, is extra to normal maximum move, and expends no extra PIPs."

Your element will then conform as per contacted in flank rules and the combat will be fought

Good question - anyone else have any thoughts on this one (of some major concern having now read this a couple of times as I have been answering the question is the below from p 33

"A rear corner or rear edge cannot be moved into any enemy contact, or a flank edge into any contact except with a flank edge or if the front edge also moves into combat. Foot cannot move into any contact with mounted"

Tenuous arguement that the front edge has also moved into contact but its tenuous which may take us back to you can't press forward

(he said hedging his bets  )

Regards

David Mather

 

[landmeister]

Good question - anyone else have any thoughts on this one (of some major concern having now read this a couple of times as I have been answering the question is the below from p 33

"A rear corner or rear edge cannot be moved into any enemy contact, or a flank edge into any contact except with a flank edge or if the front edge also moves into combat. Foot cannot move into any contact with mounted"

Tenuous arguement that the front edge has also moved into contact but its tenuous which may take us back to you can't press forward

This is just what concerns me  . I would say this explicit prohibition is stronger than the allowance of the 80 p free move, but I would like to know other opinions.

Thank you

[andrew]

Personally I wouldn't want to press forward in the situation you described.  However if I did, I would say that I couldn't put my flank into contact with your front so I would stop when my corner reached your corner.  Just my opinion....

[landmeister]

Personally I wouldn't want to press forward in the situation you described. 

I agree, but an impetuous cant choose. 

[andrew]

I agree, but an impetuous cant choose. 

IIRC only if you double them.

But from a shooters perspective, an interesting tactic to pull an impetuous troop into a combat with a flank contact.

[landmeister]

Yes 

[toby]

That is a tricky one. Since you have a nice diagram it might be worth putting on the DBMM List and seeing if Phil picks it up.

[landmeister]

My experience says that Phil is always very busy answering questions other than mine. He prefers arguing about Romans ad infinitum.  Anyway, I'll try it.

By the way, what do you think about my question on diagram 4?

Thank you