Fleeing elements with enemy to the rear

[foxgom]

Hi

am unsure about fleeing elements....

Page 41, 4th paragraph

"a fleeing element must change direction....to avoid......ending closer to any enemy element....".

If I position one element behind the enemy line, then attack them frontally and one of them has to flee, what does this sentence mean? Where does the element go? It has to end up nearer my element which is behind it.

neil fox

[toby]

No-one is really sure about this. There is a big debate going on over on the DBMM List. Hopefully Phil will pronounce at some point.

[Geoff Pearson]

Hi

am unsure about fleeing elements....

Page 41, 4th paragraph

"a fleeing element must change direction....to avoid......ending closer to any enemy element....".

If I position one element behind the enemy line, then attack them frontally and one of them has to flee, what does this sentence mean? Where does the element go? It has to end up nearer my element which is behind it.

neil fox

The element can only turn if there is nothing within 400p of the direction it is trying to turn, otherwise it has to move straight back from it internal rear.

So as the enemy fleeing element can not turn to avoid going nearer to your element to it rear it must move straight back. If it hits an enemy or impassable terrain it is destroyed or if a friend it passes or bursts through.

Hope this helps
Best Regards
Geoff

[landmeister]

Mmmm

Not so sure. You end closer to enemy NOT BEYOND A RIVER, you die. No matter the enemy being within 400 p. You will finish your move closer to it for sure 

[Geoff Pearson]

Mmmm

Not so sure. You end closer to enemy NOT BEYOND A RIVER, you die. No matter the enemy being within 400 p. You will finish your move closer to it for sure 

The element may only turn if it can move upto 400p with out hiting anything and it does not end nearer to the enemy. If you can not turn it must flee to it's inturnal rear, it will only die if it hits an enemy or impassable terrain in its path, but if it hits a friend it passes or bursts through them.

To be destroyed it must hit something it can not avoid.
You need to read paragraph 3 then 4 then 5, if a turn is stopped  by any of 4 within 400p do 6 straight back. you need to read all theses paragraph together.

Hope this helps
Geoff

[landmeister]

The element may only turn if it can move upto 400p with out hiting anything and it does not end nearer to the enemy. If you can not turn it must flee to it's inturnal rear, it will only die if it hits an enemy or impassable terrain in its path, but if it hits a friend it passes or bursts through them.

To be destroyed it must hit something it can not avoid.
You need to read paragraph 3 then 4 then 5, if a turn is stopped  by any of 4 within 400p do 6 straight back. you need to read all theses paragraph together.

I think I finally found the man I was looking for  . A real expert on fleeing moves!! Please, tell me what you think about this table:

1. There are no friends or enemies within 400 p of my fleeing move ---> No change direction

2. There are friends/impassable terrain within 400 p of my fleeing move:
              - Will I contact them/it before finishing my move?
                                               No ----> No change direction
                                               Yes ---> Apply the following priorities :
                                                           a) Pass through them if possible (no change direction) or
                                                           b) Avoid them/it if possible (change direction) or
                                                           c) Burst them through if a) and b) are not possible (no change direction)or
                                                           d) Die!!

3. There are enemies/impassable terrain within 400 p of my fleeing move:
              - Will I contact them/it before finishing my move?
                                               No ----> No change direction
                                               Yes ---> a) Avoid them/it if possible (change direction) or
                                                            b) Die!!

Once a new direction is selected, no new impassable friends/terrain or enemies must be within 400p. When changing direction, the element must apply the following order of priorities:
                    a) Look for open terrain or
                    b) Look for any other non impassable terrain or
                    c) Look for any non impassable friends

The question is: where the hell on Earth must I put the condition "ending closer to enemy"? As you say my element will die only in case of contacting an enemy one. Following this logic, I can end my fleeing move closer to enemy and nothing will happen unless I contact it 

I'm sure it must be easier than I think, but what am I missing them? 

Thank you.

[Geoff Pearson]

My version of your table would be:-

1. There are no friends or enemies within 400p of my fleeing move
    ---> No change of direction needed flee to your internal rear

2. There are friends/impassable terrain within 400 p of my fleeing move:
     - Will I contact them/it before finishing my move?
     No ----> No change of direction
     Yes ---> Apply the following priorities :
       a) Pass through them if possible (no change of direction) or
       b) Avoid them/it if possible (change of direction) but only if not ending closer to enemy or
       c) Burst them through if a) and b) are not possible (no change of direction)or
       d) Die only if moving straight back to internal rear and have contacted impassable terrain.

3. There are enemies/impassable terrain within 400 p of my fleeing move:
     - Will I contact them/it before finishing my move?
    No -> No change of direction
    Yes-> a) Avoid them/it if possible (change of direction) but only if not ending closer to enemy or
             b) Die only if moving straight back to internal rear and have contacted enemy or impassable terrain.


Once a new direction is selected, no new impassable friends/terrain or enemies must be within 400p. When changing direction, the element must apply the following order of priorities:
                    a) Look for open terrain or
                    b) Look for any other non impassable terrain or
                    c) Look for any non impassable friends
                    d) Does the TURN and move bring it closer to the enemy?


The condition "ending closer to enemy" only applies when you are trying to change direction not moving straight back.
Best Regards
Geoff

[landmeister]

Wow!! Impressive! 

I still have a few questions:

1. What would happen in case 2-yes-b) if the element ends closer to enemy? Should then 2-yes-c) be applicable?

2. Same with case 3-yes-a). If I understand you correctly, my element can't change direction because will end closer to enemy, so it must move straight backwards. It is then destroyed due to contacting enemy. Correct?

3. Do you understand what happens when a friend is bust through by a fleeing element? I understand that once the fleeing one and the burst through one have moved, this last one will be put immediately in front of the other if the fleeing one's front would be ahead?  . I'm afraid this sentence is too unclear to me. 

Thank you very much.

[Geoff Pearson]

Wow!! Impressive! 

I still have a few questions:

1. What would happen in case 2-yes-b) if the element ends closer to enemy? Should then 2-yes-c) be applicable?

You can not have a change of direction if the element ends closer to enemy so it must move straight backwards.

2. Same with case 3-yes-a). If I understand you correctly, my element can't change direction because will end closer to enemy, so it must move straight backwards. It is then destroyed due to contacting enemy. Correct?

If its move straight backwards contacts an enemy yes

3. Do you understand what happens when a friend is bust through by a fleeing element? I understand that once the fleeing one and the burst through one have moved, this last one will be put immediately in front of the other if the fleeing one's front would be ahead?  . I'm afraid this sentence is too unclear to me. 

It means that if the friend moves slower than the fleeing element it ends up following it but if faster it ends up infront.
Best Regards
Geoff

Thank you very much.

[landmeister]

Thank you very much for all 

[landmeister]

Sorry, the final one, I promise! 

It means that if the friend moves slower than the fleeing element it ends up following it but if faster it ends up infront.

But must these friends make a "normal" flee move? I see this case is not included in the four situations where fleeing is applicable (combat, flank marchers arriving, recoiling elephants or feigned flight). Would this be a fifth situation?

Thank you.

[additz]

What would a real man(unit) try to do?

Wouldn't it try to avoid both enemies?
That would result in a path which leads it away from both as far as possible.
Isn't that commonsence? I would do that, if the rule is not clear.

additz

[landmeister]

I have two quetions about diagram 15.

1. Why element A can't deviate like element B? Is it because it could end closer to element Z than its current initial position?
2. What would happen if another enemy element were in flank to flank contact with X? Could element B deviate as shown and so ending closer to it? Would it pass through N?

Thank you in advance.

[LAP1964]

I have two quetions about diagram 15.

1. Why element A can't deviate like element B? Is it because it could end closer to element Z than its current initial position?

  :)looking a where Z is there doesn't seem to be a 80p gap anywhere,for A to go through,so it would contact Z.

2. What would happen if another enemy element were in flank to flank contact with X? Could element B deviate as shown and so ending closer to it?
 
  :)I would say yes,as it would start 40mm from the element.So it would end further away from it?
LES

[landmeister]

  :)looking a where Z is there doesn't seem to be a 80p gap anywhere,for A to go through,so it would contact Z.

Great! I didn't notice that space was so limited  .

  :)I would say yes,as it would start 40mm from the element.So it would end further away from it?

Ok, I would remake the question. What would happen if this new enemy element would be positioned so that B would end closer to it? Would it then pass through the Hordes? 

Thank you