Army defeat

[bunwin]

When a command becomes broken, do the MEs contributed to that command from army baggage count as lost.

Say your army has 60ME including 12 ME for army baggage. A command is made up of 28ME plus 3ME for army baggage. When that command becomes broken, does 28ME or 31ME count as lost?

[toby]

I think its the full 31 ME, otherwise there would be 9 ME that could never be broken.

Check the commentary though on the main site, as I think it answers the question porperly.

[Marcel Bos]

In my opinion the answer from Toby should be correct.

In the Army List Generator, which you can find by the resources at the home-page, I have calculated the Total Army ME is as the sum of all the Total Commands ME, which are, of course, inclusive the Army Bagage.

[bunwin]

The 9 ME can be broken if the army baggage gets destroyed

[bunwin]

Check the commentary though on the main site, as I think it answers the question porperly.

It's in the commentary, but as one of Hammy's unanswered questions!

[MikeCampbell]

Yes it's one of Hammy's questions that is answered by readinf the rules - beginners I understand wondering about it....but not the likes of Mr Hammond.


Under "Lost and/or removed troops" page 42 it says that  "All elements of a broken command are lost".

- the Baggage is not part of the command, so does not count as lost.

It serves solely to increase the break (& disheartened & shattered) points of the command and the army.

the flip side is that if the baggage is lost then the break point of every command that contributed to it is lowered - but again eth baggage does not count as "lost" to those commands.

[bunwin]

thanks Mike

[toby]

Yeah - Mike is right and I was wrong. The ME will be lost when the baggage command is lost. I am sure this is addressed in the Commentary document?

[bunwin]

As far as I can see the question is raised but not resolved in the section "Army Baggage Losses"

thanks
BU

[Platypus]

Just to confirm, the ME contributed by the baggage is not lost when a command is broken. An example with 3 9ME commands with a Army baggage Train command

A: 9+3 = 12 (3,4,6)
B: 9+3 = 12 (3,4,6)
C: 9+3 = 12 (3,4,6)
Ab: 3

Total ME 39 (19.5)

If Command A loses >4 ME it is broken, but only 9 ME is counted as lost as these are the ME from the elements in the command.

If the Ab command was broken you would lose 12 ME straight up, with 3 each coming from each command (so each command is close to disheartened!

Please note this is an artificial example as most armies are bigger than 39ME, so the effect of the Ab is a bit less. However at about 300AP my Samurai come close (lots of DBE troops so lots of points for few ME). You could get this in a 200AP game.

Hope this helps,

G^is,
JohnG


 

[MikeCampbell]

Penda it was the Road to Damascus for me too....I'd "simply" assumed that baggage ME's were lost with the rest of the command as a hangover from DBM.....I don't think I'd ever actually read the "lost and/or destroyed elements" section until I did so to answer the question above.

It certainly makes army baggage better than the way I had been playing it - often I had wondered why you'd have army baggage rathe than command when 2 command baggage gives you 4 ME's and sharing 6 army baggage only gives you 3.

now I know!

[DaveMather]

Thats a crowded road

Not how we have been playing it either but been wrong before 

Does make one or two other bits fall into place

Many Thanks

David Mather

[Marcel Bos]

In the Excel DBMM Army List generator, wich is available on the website, the total ME of a command is inclusive the Army Bagage.

This is ok?, but if you loose the command apparently it isn't the total ME you loose towards the Army ME.
So this can be confusing.

Does somebody likes me to change this in any way.
For example I can mention both.

[MikeCampbell]

Yes the command total includes baggage - that is OK

but when the command is lost, the army only loses the command total WITHOUT baggage - I'll change the list generator I made (I think there's a few isn't there?) some time today probably to reflect this.

So using Platypus's example above and expanding it a bit:

Command 1:  9 ME + 3 Bg ME = 12 ME.  disheartened over 3, broken over 4, shattered over 6

Command 2:  9 ME + 3 Bg ME = 12 ME.  disheartened over 3, broken over 4, shattered over 6

Command 3:  9 ME + 3 Bg ME = 12 ME.  disheartened over 3, broken over 4, shattered over 6

Command 4:  6 Army baggage = 3 ME.  dishearened over 1, broken over 1, shattered over 1.5

So army total is 39 (3 commands each of 12 + 3 for the baggage command), so defeated if it loses more than 19.5

But each of commands 1, 2 and 3 only count as 9 ME lost when they are broken - because they only have 9 ME of elements, and only the elements actually in the commands count as lost - the 3 ME for the baggage do not count as lost because those elements are not actually part of the command.

If Command 1 and Command 2 are broken that's a total of only 18 ME - the army is not broken.

Also if the baggage is destroyed then it only counts as 3 ME's lost because only the 3 ME's in het baggaeg command actually count lost.

Commands 1, 2 and 3 will become smaller if the baggage is lost, making them easier to break - ie they will count as 9 ME's instead of 12 since they no longer have baggage, so they are disheartened at 2.5, broken over 3 and shattered over 4.5.

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi

>Also if the baggage is destroyed then it only counts as 3 ME's lost because only the 3 ME's in het >baggaeg command actually count lost.

Are you sure about this ? if Army Baggage Cmd is Lost I would count it as 12MEs lost (assuming 3 Cmd contributing 2 Bag each) towards total army morale, ie 3 for the Cmd itself plus -3ME for each contributing Cmd ?
You may be saying same thing by reducing ME levels that Cmds then break at ?

Thankfully I have not yet lost an  entire Army Baggage Cmd to test my theory :-)

Cheers
Gary