Small Seleucid army - help

[LAP1964]

Sorry about that,been use to Reg and Irr Lh costing the same for to long.So you have 4AP to spend.
LES.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

New changes. I subtract 2 Pk and Ambush and added 2 Kn(F). Now I need to loose 5 Kn elements to get in trouble. I am not sure if the balance between Pk and Kn is ok but it is close to DBA list:

1   Companions   Reg   Kn(F)      CinC
7   Line cavalry   Reg   Kn(F)      
2   Elephants   Irr   El(O)      
3   Skythians   Irr   Lh(F)      
0               
1   Sub-general   Reg   Pk(S)      SG
7   Argyraspids   Reg   Pk(S)      
14   Phalanx   Reg   Pk(O)      
6   Asiatic slingers   Irr   Ps(O)      
2   Heavy bolt-shooter   Reg   Art(O)      
               
1   Companions   Reg   Kn(F)      SG
2   Tarantines   Reg   Lh(O)      
3   Galatian cavalry   Irr   Cv(O)      
6   Thureophoroi and thorakitai   Reg   Ax(S)      
4   Kappadokian   Irr   Ps(S)      

[Barritus]

Michal

Your army is quite similar to an Alexandrian Macedonian army I designed a couple of months ago. It was based on a proposed version of the Alex Mac list, which may well not be the final design.

Command 1:
Brilliant general
4 Kn (F) Companions
2 LH (S) Prodromoi
4 Ax (S) Hypaspists
4 Irr Ax (S) Thracians
4 Irr Ps (S) Illyrians

Command 2:
Sub as Kn (F)
16 Pk (O) Pezhetairoi
4 Ps (O) Cretans
1 Cv (I) Greek

Command 3:
Sub as Cv
4 Cv (O) Thessalians
3 Irr LH (O) Paionians
8 Irr Ax (S) Thracians
4 Ps (S) Agrianians

Command 4:
6 Irr Bg (O)

I'd recommend against using Brilliant Generals early on, until you become more familiar with the rules. But as I have a figure of Alexander as my Commander-in-Chief, it seems only right to field him, and use him appropriately.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Who can field "Bg (O)"?

How many points is Your army?

Yes, Salaucids are similiar to Macedonians. They only get few extra "asian" element types: chariots, elephants, camels etc. I will try to use them after few games.

Why did You take mounted general for Your Pk block?

Seleukos I Nikator or any other seleucid general was not a brilliant one

I like Your Command 1:

Superior LH, few Kn, some difficult terrain specialists.

[Barritus]

Who can field "Bg (O)"?

It is not clear at the moment! But it is likely that all Hellenistic armies will be entitled to Irregular Baggage (O). It will not be certain until List Book 2 is published, and we do not know when that will be.

The general rule is that all armies can field 0-2 elements of baggage per command. For most armies, baggage is irregular. In the only published list book, the only armies which got regular baggage were Byzantines, some Chinese, and Koreans. Again, for most armies, baggage is (O), which represents tents. Usually only nomad armies get Baggage (F), which represents pack mules and horses. A few armies can alternatively get Baggage (I), which represents unruly farm animals.

The advantage of baggage is that it increases command sizes very cheaply.

How many points is Your army?

400 points.

Yes, Salaucids are similiar to Macedonians. They only get few extra "asian" element types: chariots, elephants, camels etc. I will try to use them after few games.

One little hint. If you intend to use Scythed Chariots, also purchase the "Unusual Weapons" stratagem. This allows you to deploy them after your opponent deploys. If the Scythed Chariots are part of a command which deploys wide, you will have a lot of options as to where to deploy them.

Why did You take mounted general for Your Pk block?

Two reasons. Firstly, according to the list, if I wish to have a Pk general, I have to have two of them, and I do not wish to do that. Secondly, he is a useful movile reserve in case the enemy breaks through the phalanx.

Seleukos I Nikator or any other seleucid general was not a brilliant one

Antiochus III is, from 220BC.

I like Your Command 1:

Superior LH, few Kn, some difficult terrain specialists.

Yes, in my opinion, the Kn (F) are not a powerful enough attacking force by themselves. In your army, you support them with elephants, which is good. I rely on good support from the LH (S), and Brilliant Alexander. The Ax (S) are useful general purpose troops, and Ps are useful for skirmishing, and for dealing with elephants.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

One little hint. If you intend to use Scythed Chariots, also purchase the "Unusual Weapons" stratagem. This allows you to deploy them after your opponent deploys. If the Scythed Chariots are part of a command which deploys wide, you will have a lot of options as to where to deploy them.

Great tip but do my C-in-C has to be inert? I would like to change few Kn with Sch and see how they work.

Antiochus III is, from 220BC.

Was he a seleucid general? hmm...

Yes, in my opinion, the Kn (F) are not a powerful enough attacking force by themselves. In your army, you support them with elephants, which is good. I rely on good support from the LH (S), and Brilliant Alexander. The Ax (S) are useful general purpose troops, and Ps are useful for skirmishing, and for dealing with elephants.

Alexander's army has many S troops And yes, loosing Elephants to Ps is painful. I hope I will find an opponent to try out my Seleucids [I hope I will finish then in 2-3 months].


P.S.

I am still thinking if the Pk block is not to big ...

[Barritus]

I said:

One little hint. If you intend to use Scythed Chariots, also purchase the "Unusual Weapons" stratagem. This allows you to deploy them after your opponent deploys. If the Scythed Chariots are part of a command which deploys wide, you will have a lot of options as to where to deploy them.

Michael replied:

Great tip but do my C-in-C has to be inert? I would like to change few Kn with Sch and see how they work.

No, your C-in-C does not have to be Inert. Unusual Weapons is one of the few stratagems which inert generals can use, but that does not mean only inert generals can use the stratagem.

I said:

Antiochus III is [brilliant], from 220BC.

Michal said:

Was he a seleucid general? hmm...

Yes, he certainly was. He led the Seleucid army against the Ptolemaic army at Raphia in about 217BC, and against the Romans at Magnesia in about 190BC.

I am still thinking if the Pk block is not to big ...

It's hard to say. Pk are a good source of cheap Morale Equivalents. But they need to deploy deep, which keeps your army narrow. This increases the pressure on your flanks. Therefore, if you are going to take that many Pk, you need to be aggressive with them, to win in the centre, and be able to support your flanks.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

t's hard to say. Pk are a good source of cheap Morale Equivalents. But they need to deploy deep, which keeps your army narrow. This increases the pressure on your flanks. Therefore, if you are going to take that many Pk, you need to be aggressive with them, to win in the centre, and be able to support your flanks.

Hmm... I will try to reduce the block a bit a see what happends. I still have 2 columns of Argyraspids.

Yes, he certainly was. He led the Seleucid army against the Ptolemaic army at Raphia in about 217BC, and against the Romans at Magnesia in about 190BC.

hehe I checked and You are right. He was a Seleucid. Funny thing is that he lost both those battles Brilliant I will use him anyway. 


  1   Antiochus II the Great Reg   Kn(F)      CinCbr
  7   Line cavalry   Reg   Kn(F)     
  2   Elephants   Irr   El(O)     
  3   Skythians   Irr   Lh(F)     
             
  1   Sub-general   Reg   Pk(S)      SG
  7   Argyraspids   Reg   Pk(S)     
12   Phalanx   Reg   Pk(O)     
  6   Asiatic slingers   Irr   Ps(O)     
  2   Heavy bolt-shooter   Reg   Art(O)     
               
  1   Companions   Reg   Kn(F)      SG
  2   Tarantines   Reg   Lh(O)     
  3   Galatian cavalry   Irr   Cv(O)     
  6   Thureophoroi and thorakitai   Reg   Ax(S)     
  4   Kappadokian   Irr   Ps(S)     

No Ambush, 395AP, 5 AP left.

[Barritus]

In which case, you could spend the 5 points on a stratagem available only to Brilliant generals - like Change Deployment.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Good idea! It is much better then 2 extra Ps elements...

Barritus. Have You ever used of fought against bolt-shooters? Can they cause any damage? I took 2 bolts because I like the idea but are they worth taking [I will use them anyway for my first few games]?

[Swampster]

Yes, he certainly was. He led the Seleucid army against the Ptolemaic army at Raphia in about 217BC, and against the Romans at Magnesia in about 190BC.

hehe I checked and You are right. He was a Seleucid. Funny thing is that he lost both those battles Brilliant I will use him anyway. 

He did very well against the Parthians and others in the East and got his revenge against the Ptolemies at Panion. 

As far as the unusual troops goes, if your opponent knows what army you are taking there is a good chance he will take scouting which is pretty likely to discover the strategem. You might get a bit of trying to double guess the opponent "Well he knows I'll take unusual troops so he'll take scouting but I know that so I won't take unusual troops but he knows that I know he'll take scouting and that I won't bother taking unsual troops so he won't bother taking scouting so..."
Although scouting is also useful against ambush for instance. I can't remember if it can be used vs. change deployment. That is a great strategem, but make sure you deploy the army in a way that leaves room for the commands to swap position. You have to redeploy either as they were in the other place or as a mirror image.

 

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Chaning Deployment is close to the DBA one. I am familiar with the idea.

He did very well against the Parthians and others in the East and got his revenge against the Ptolemies at Panion.

It was a joke Anyway. Syrian wars were always up's nad down's either for Ptolemic or Seleucids. Doing well against Parthians is something. Even Romans had great problems with them. To bw honest they had problems with all fully mounted armies

Antiochus II the Great

New idea. I think I should update my Kn(F) to Kn(X) and El(O) or El(S) because it is more propper for Antiochus and his fight against Romans.

I hope I will be able to collect a Roman army to face my Seleucids. I was always keen on wars between roman empire and Alexanders' Diadochi.

[toby]

If you Antiochus as Brilliant you will almost certainly have to upgrade most of your Kn to X and have fewer elephants all as (S). I suspect you might end up with 0-1 Kn(F) wedge, 0-1 Kn(F) or (X) and the rest as Kn(X).

[Michal Ciemniewski]

I suspect you might end up with 0-1 Kn(F) wedge, 0-1 Kn(F) or (X) and the rest as Kn(X).

Do I have to update all Kn to X or is it optional?

and have fewer elephants all as (S)

Still max 3 elephants.

[Barritus]

Barritus. Have You ever used of fought against bolt-shooters? Can they cause any damage? I took 2 bolts because I like the idea but are they worth taking [I will use them anyway for my first few games]?

I have used them and fought against them. My view is that you do not take them with the object of destroying enemy elements. Instead, they are there to break up enemy formations, to scare off enemy light horse, or to draw out an opponent who otherwise wishes to stand still. I do not think I have ever destroyed an element with Art (O) in DBMM.

They also tend to get left behind because it costs an extra PIP to move a group containing them.