Author Topic: Fortification questions  (Read 3279 times)

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Valentinian Victor

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Fortification questions
« on: April 10, 2008, 10:12:52 AM »
I hope someone here can clarify a couple of things for me.

Do TF require a gateway? I would find it hard to envisage a waggon laager with gateway!

Initial deployment- It clearly states in the initial deployment section that ALL ELEMENTS have to be placed 400p from an enemy fortification.
Now then, if I deploy first and place my baggage on the rear edge surrounded by a ditch and pallisade, is my opponent forced to deploy every one of his elements 400p from my baggage due to the fact TF are classed as fortifications?

Barritus

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2008, 03:24:37 PM »
I hope someone here can clarify a couple of things for me.

Do TF require a gateway? I would find it hard to envisage a waggon laager with gateway!

Nothing that I've ever seen indicates it. They'd normally only be required for Permanent Fortifications, I think.

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Initial deployment- It clearly states in the initial deployment section that ALL ELEMENTS have to be placed 400p from an enemy fortification.

No it doesn't.

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Now then, if I deploy first and place my baggage on the rear edge surrounded by a ditch and pallisade, is my opponent forced to deploy every one of his elements 400p from my baggage due to the fact TF are classed as fortifications?

Nope.

The rule says
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No element can deploy less than 400p from an enemy fortification.

In other words, deployment more than 400p from enemy fortification is fine.

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2008, 04:20:58 PM »
Thanks, but that still poses a problem as by rights if my opponent places TF protected baggage on their rear base line then I could quite possibly deploy my entire army 400p from it, in all likelyhood ending up behind my opponent!!! Could I then deploy facing my opponents rear?
As for the gateway issue, from my reading of the rules it does appear to say TF need a gateway as mounted cannot cross apart from at a gateway? I think that perhaps Ditch and palisade might justify a gateway, but plashing and waggons do not.
I suspect its just a badly worded section that was put in to prevent players deploying their elements too close to fortifications placed around BUA that might well be in forward areas of the the table.
I know many sneaky rules lawyers who could use this to their advantage, especially in competition games!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 04:23:06 PM by Valentinian Victor »

Barritus

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2008, 04:53:19 PM »
Thanks, but that still poses a problem as by rights if my opponent places TF protected baggage on their rear base line then I could quite possibly deploy my entire army 400p from it, in all likelyhood ending up behind my opponent!!! Could I then deploy facing my opponents rear?

No, come on, you're being silly. There are other rules which limit how far forward you can deploy:
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The army deploying first must not deploy any elements further forward than 240p short of the battlefield centre line, or the other army any elements further forward than 400p short of the battlefield centre line, unless in a fortified BUA or in ambush.

And as for deploying facing your opponent's rear:
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Elements not in ambush or in PF or TF must not deploy facing their army's base edge.

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As for the gateway issue, from my reading of the rules it does appear to say TF need a gateway as mounted cannot cross apart from at a gateway? I think that perhaps Ditch and palisade might justify a gateway, but plashing and waggons do not.
I suspect its just a badly worded section that was put in to prevent players deploying their elements too close to fortifications placed around BUA that might well be in forward areas of the the table.
I know many sneaky rules lawyers who could use this to their advantage, especially in competition games!

Again, I think you're over-reading it, though I accept it's not as well written as it could be (as, for that matter, is a lot of the rule book).

Yes, mounted can't cross TF except via a gateway. That doesn't make gateways compulsory if you have TF; it just means that if you have TF without a gateway, the mounted in your army are going to have to go around it.

As for having a forward-deployed fortified BUA, you can put troops in it, but if it doesn't have a gateway, any mounted in there aren't going to have much effect on the game. I remember a guy who used the fortified-BUA-with-garrison-in-the-enemy-deployment-zone trick about ten years ago in a DBM competition. It threw a few opponents off their game, but one opponent took one look at the BUA and went straight for it. The garrison was a long way from their general, so they took a lot of PIPs to move around to counter attacks on them. And the number of elements in the garrison was enough that losing it demoralised that wing of the player's army. Defeat soon followed...

And sneaky rules lawyers aren't as serious a problem as they used to be in 7th Edition. Firstly, DBM got played so much that a lot of interpretations were developed which were accepted widely enough for umpires to enforce, and only really isolated players got caught out. Secondly, the rise of the Internet made it a lot easier to discuss problems and broadcast interpretations and explanations. After a few years of DBM, it was very hard to come up with problems which hadn't been seen before. This made it a lot easier for umpires to override players.

We haven't got to this point with DBMM yet. There's a group of players who've been working on a set of interpretations and explanations, and they're available on the main DBMM web-site. They haven't yet got Phil Barker's imprimatur, but we used them at Cancon back in January, which has been the largest DBMM competition to date.

toby

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 01:27:54 PM »
Your deployment must be bounded by all the deployment requirements:

1. You must be more than x paces from the centre line (depending on first/second deployment)
2. You cannot be within 400paces of an enemy fortifications
3. You must be facing forwards
4. etc

You can't just pick and chose the ones you want to apply.

Toby

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 03:45:14 PM »
Thanks for the clarifications.
I guess that gateways probably are only needed for TF if you want troops to leave them en-mass rather than as single elements over/through them depending on what kind of TF they are.

toby

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 04:59:59 PM »
Plus if you have mounted in there.

I once tried a very bizarre Ottoman army with one vast command including army baggage inside a vast ring of fortifications, the front of which was lined with bombards and janissaries. The two tiny wing commands of sipahis and akinjis each flank marched so the fortification was all there was on the table, and you needed to break that command to take the army. It was a total failure because by opponent refused to come forward and attack it because it was just too strong. At that point I decided to move my reserve kapikulu out of the laager and realised that as mounted elements they couldn't leave. Serves me right for not having read the TF rules before using them.

Toby

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 04:45:07 PM »
I have another TF question.
How do you place TF in front of your baggage elements?
For example, I have 4 Irr Bge(O) elements in the Army baggage command. I can have 4 or more Wagon Laager TF pieces to cover the front of the Baggage elements. If I decide to just have 4 Wagon TF how am I allowed to place them? Only in a straight line with the baggage elements directly behind the Wagon TF? Or can I place the wagon TF in a upside down 'U-Shape', with two TF wagon sections forming the Top part, and with a single TF coming off the left and right sides forming the rest of the 'U-Shape'? In this example could the baggage elements be placed so that two face forward, and one faces left and the other faces right?.
In order to form the 'U-Shape' the TF wagon sections would have the arms going down to the base line only in corner contact with the other TF wagon element facing front. This also applies to 4  Ditch and Pallisade TF sections protecting 4 Reg Bge(O) elements.
I would show diagram if I knew how to both do the diagram and import it into this text, sorry!

Tim Child

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 01:57:30 PM »
I have another TF question.
How do you place TF in front of your baggage elements?
For example, I have 4 Irr Bge(O) elements in the Army baggage command. I can have 4 or more Wagon Laager TF pieces to cover the front of the Baggage elements. If I decide to just have 4 Wagon TF how am I allowed to place them? Only in a straight line with the baggage elements directly behind the Wagon TF? Or can I place the wagon TF in a upside down 'U-Shape', with two TF wagon sections forming the Top part, and with a single TF coming off the left and right sides forming the rest of the 'U-Shape'? In this example could the baggage elements be placed so that two face forward, and one faces left and the other faces right?.
In order to form the 'U-Shape' the TF wagon sections would have the arms going down to the base line only in corner contact with the other TF wagon element facing front. This also applies to 4  Ditch and Pallisade TF sections protecting 4 Reg Bge(O) elements.
I would show diagram if I knew how to both do the diagram and import it into this text, sorry!

Your upside down U (some would call that an n   :) ) is right.  You connect the front edges of the TFs with the side edges using (P.11 of the rules) "Corner pieces of no internal frontage ... [which] are not paid for and cannot be asaulted, crossed or shot over."

Tim Child

Barritus

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Re: Fortification questions
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 06:23:45 AM »
If you choose to only have 4 TF for your 4 Bg elements, then some of the baggage will be unprotected.

The TF must touch the table edge, meaning the 4 TFs form an 'n', as described above. Well, this will only protect 2 baggage elements. The other 2 Bg elements will be outside the circuit of the TF.