Author Topic: DBMM review (Read 6639 times)

MikeCampbell · « **on:** April 15, 2008, 03:53:40 AM »

the latest Slingshot includes a review of DBMM by a Warhammer Ancient Battles player (who also played DBM up 'til a couple of years ago).

He's previously written a review which is available at http://www.box.net/shared/n18bvwh4o4 - I haven't received the latest slingshot yet, so this may or may not be the one in Slingshot - I suspect it is from comments on the DBMM yahoo group.

but it's an intersting read regardless.

Hammy · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2008, 11:10:06 AM »

I haven't checked word for word but it looks similar to me.

There is also a report on the DBMM tournament at Britcon last year so lots for the DBMM fan.

foxgom · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2008, 08:46:37 PM »

Hi

The review discusses the differences in presentation between the different rules sets.

I have no idea about sales numbers (except I hear there?s a long wait to get a copy of FOG) but here are a few numbers from few days ago....

DBMM Yahoo Group: 1378 members. About 1,5 new members per day
This page dbmm.org.uk has about 151 members.

Slitherine FOG Forum: 4600 members. About 10 [!] new members per day
FOG Yahoo Group: 178 members

DBM Yahoo Group: 2250 members. [was higher, but some have de-registered, e.g. me]

WAB Yahoo Group: 3805 members.

It seems that FOG has achieved its goal of appealing to the widest possible spectrum of players and has gained a lot of players from DBM and WAB.
DBMM has only managed to keep about half of the DBM players.

I personally much prefer DBMM mechanisms to FOG but can understand how good packaging and well laid out rules appeal. I consider Phil?s rules to be brilliant, but the presentation and some of the phrasing to be obstacles to any beginner and to the success of the product. It would have been interesting to see what DBMM could have achieved with more professional presentation. I imagine Phil likes seeing people play his rules so I hope he gives some thought to this before bringing out any more.

Our small DBM community in Germany is splitting into 2 camps (FOG & DBMM), which I find a great pity.
FOG even seems to be gaining fans amongst our 6th Edition "dinosaurs" [I?m being cheeky here], who are still hanging on in Germany in significant numbers.

Neil Fox

Tim Child · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2008, 01:11:45 PM »

One of the interesting features of the Yahoo! FoG and DBMM lists is the amount of traffic. I'm on both (and the dbmlist) and take the Digest option. I get about 2 digests a day from Fog, 1-2 from the dbmlist and 4-6 for DBMM.

So, the DBMM is the smallest of the three, but the one that seems to generate the most interest and chatter.

Not sure what to make of that, but it's (to me) a fascinating reversal.

Tim Child

Hammy · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2008, 03:18:25 PM »

True but in the my mailing list gets more posts than yours you are ignoring both this forum and the FoG forum

I knew that desubscribing from the DBMM list was a good idea.

Barritus · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2008, 07:07:24 PM »

Quote from: foxgom on April 29, 2008, 08:46:37 PM

...Our small DBM community in Germany is splitting into 2 camps (FOG & DBMM), which I find a great pity.

I see no reason why people can't play both. They're different enough that it's unlikely that mechanisms from one will pollute your memory of the other.

I only play DBMM at the moment, but there are a few at the club I belong to who've managed to insert both sets of rules into their craniums (crania?) without problems.

Hammy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2008, 07:38:46 PM »

For some reason FoG and DBMM players seem to be very much one game or the other. There was a distinct possibility that our club ancients trophy which has been running since the 1970s may not have happened this year because within the club there are DBMM players who will not even countenance playing FoG and FoG players who will not for any reason play DBMM. All of the players in question used to happily play DBM.

Tim Child · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2008, 01:29:09 PM »

It's an unfortunate example of tribalism (cue very appropriate Life of Brian quotes...). Sadly, there are Ancients/medieval players who haven't seen the light of DBMM!

Some of them seem to have become soured by the development process, some of them have at least made the effort of reading and playing the finished version before condemning it. I feel that a lot have been put off simply because their clique says DBMM's got rules holes etc in it - of which there are occasional examples but not as many or as serious as rumour would have it. Some of teh tournament players took umbrage about some of Phil's comments about tournament players during the development process. Seems an odd thing to let get in your way of having a good gaming experience, but there you go.

It's their loss, of course, but it does diminish our enjoyment too.

The 3-way split of DBM into FoG, DBMM and 3.1 players is very sad. There are certainly guys playing both (Dave Ruddock is a FoG-ite who seems to play a fair bit of DBMM, Richard Jeffrey-Cook is playing both games in 25mm scale, to quote two examples). However, for myself the reason why I haven't yet played FoG (despite owning the rules and all the published supplements) is that I just haven't had the me-time to do both. I wouldn't be surprised if that weren't the most common reason of all.

Here is the UK I also get the impression that there's a bit of an entrenchment thing going on. DBMers are happy with DBM and are don't see why they should abandon a game they still enjoy. Some of them don't want DBMM to succeed, as they're still hoping that we'll come back into the non-FoG fold. FoG-ers have "taken the plunge" away from the Barker rules, and don't want to go back at the moment. DBMMers are being proudly non-conformist...

Tim Child

Sgt Steiner · « **Reply #8 on:** May 07, 2008, 03:45:49 PM »

Hi

I happily play both (and having ordered Impetus will give these a go too) as both have different strengths/appeals and use essentially same figs.

I can however see why a comp player would prefer to pick one set or the other as maybe tad hard to learn/play both to required degree of competence

Me I prefer variety

Hammy · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2008, 04:00:47 PM »

In England from a tournament perspective at least it would seem that DBM is sharply down and a small group of people are playing DBMM but at present the ancients game that is getting the most "bums on seats" is FoG.

It seems that DBM and DBMM are both suffering to some extent from players who hold the attitude that there is no point in entering competion X because there won't be enough entries to make it happen. If people keep on like that then it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

The BHGS will run whatever tournaments players want to play. DBMM was for example advertised as both 25mm and 15mm comps at the BHGS Challenge but the total DBMM entry was only 10 players and most of them I believe entered 15mm.

The Northern League is managing to run all three rulesets but DBMM is still very weak in terms of player numbers.

The long and sort of it is it you want a particular ruleset to be played in competitions then when you see a competition for the ruleset you want to play ENTER THE *?$!# COMPETITION and have a good time.

Me I am more than happy playing Flames of War and FoG.

Carthage · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2008, 09:15:50 AM »

I think that you Competition players should get out more and interact with us real wargamers and just be happy to get your figures out and have a good day gaming what ever the rules you use ffs..

I play BOTH set of rules and i dont what some text book squot telling me which set is the best and why !!!! you are missing the point its only a game to have FUN with .

why is it when you walk into a competition there is no life no happy faces beaming back at you. just a load of stressed up faces nit picking over the rules ! its a bloody great way to show are younger players that when you grow up you can play in competitions just like theses.

tell you what hammy you join a good club and you will not need to play any more competitions any more..
happy gaming dave.V

Hammy · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2008, 10:00:56 AM »

Quote from: Carthage on May 09, 2008, 09:15:50 AM

why is it when you walk into a competition there is no life no happy faces beaming back at you. just a load of stressed up faces nit picking over the rules ! its a bloody great way to show are younger players that when you grow up you can play in competitions just like theses.

tell you what hammy you join a good club and you will not need to play any more competitions any more..
happy gaming dave.V

Actually most of the tournament players I know are really rather nice chaps and will happily chat to bystanders. My comment about tournaments was in response to the people on this and other forums complaining that there are not enough DBMM or DBM tournaments. It annoys me when people are willing to complain but aren't willing to get off their backsides and do something about it.

For me it isn't a problem, there are plenty of tournaments I can go to to play the games I want to play and I am a member of a very active club where I can play DBMM, WAB, FoG, FoW and WH40K whenever I want. The biggest problem at my club at present is we are running out of space to fit in players. We had 12 games ongoing last Monday.

Tim Child · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2008, 11:11:04 PM »

I have just got in from day 1 of Campaign in Milton Keynes. Three enjoyable games (if rather shorter than I needed to get a result in games 1 and 2

) and plenty of public interest. I chatted to various members of the public, gamers of old and complete newbies. The DBMM games (all 25/8mm) were clearly of interest to them, and I'd have said that the gamers themselves were showing interest and fun, not stress and tension!

Of course, it's a great and very unusual venue for a competition, slap bang in the middle of Milton Keynes' central shopping centre!

(I even managed to go to John Lewis and get some birthday presents, thus replenishing a few of my brownie points expended by the day's gaming

)

Tim Child

MikeCampbell · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2008, 02:44:03 AM »

WEll y'all are better men than me Gunga Din's!!

I gave up on DBM 'cos I was having trouble remembering which rules weer DBM and which were DBMM.....I've had FoG (& gave it back) & seen a number of games & have no desire to return to units and individual weapon types or wade through 160 pages of rules no matter how pretty....although I'll probably play a few games over the years as with various rules I don't "play".

Marcel Bos · « **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2008, 07:29:11 PM »

First I want to say that I like DBMM very much.

The game has only one big problem, how to learn it. It took me months. Just reading the rules, without seeing people playing it, don't tell you how to play it. It was a problem I had before I found DBA-online on the Internet, which learned me the basics of DB... and after that there was a struggle with the rules.
A popular game can be difficult, like DBMM, but the basics should be easy to learn. There should be a learning tool of some kind for beginners, teaching the basic rules step-by-step. A lot of examples, far more then the rules provide, would also help a lot and can be placed on the official DBMM-site.
I enclosed an easy example.

Of course, I'm also very pleased with this Forum.

Marcel