Author Topic: Psiloi passing through  (Read 5471 times)

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Marcel Bos

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Psiloi passing through
« on: June 15, 2008, 08:17:21 PM »
Hi,

Psiloi can recoil or be repulsed trough any facing other directions to end directly to the rear of these and facing the same way. (p. 32)

Is that facing the same way as:
A: the psiloi were before the moved
B: the troops they have passed trough

Thanks,

Marcel

MikeCampbell

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 12:13:47 AM »
I play it facing the same way as the troops just passed through - representing rallying behind.

landmeister

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 09:25:21 AM »
Mmmm... I play it like option A.c :-\

Any consensus?

Marcel Bos

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2008, 10:08:26 AM »
So, we have still two options.   :)

I have made PDF-examples of those options and have attached them.
I prefer the option of Mike, but I am still not sure.
Any more comments?

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 03:32:58 PM »
Two points here, do Ps actually recoil? I can only find options for them to repulse, flee or become spent.
And, if they could recoil, and the elements behind them were in two ranks, would they not then recoil through the first element behind them, then push back the element behind that one? And can they repulse through more than one rank of elements behind them?
And I've always treated it that if troops are recoiled/repulsed they always face the way they were facing when repulsed, as per the rules.

Marcel Bos

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2008, 04:27:12 PM »
Two points here, do Ps actually recoil? I can only find options for them to repulse, flee or become spent.

There are some Outcome Exceptions for Psiloi (also on the Quick Reference Sheet), but they can still recoil, for example when beaten by Ps or LH.

And, if they could recoil, and the elements behind them were in two ranks, would they not then recoil through the first element behind them, then push back the element behind that one?

I'm now not so sure any more if they can pass more then one element in this case. The rules indeed talkes about 'beyond the first such element, other friends moving back to make room', so the element would in this case would stop after the third element in the column of spears, because this is the first element which base isn't cleared. If the recoiling Ps had passed this element totaly then it should
also pass the fourth element in the column.

And can they repulse through more than one rank of elements behind them?
Why couldn't they pass through more then one element?
(But in this case the original recoil, before the repulse, pushes back friends, so the repulse is cancelled, I had forgotten about this rule.  :-X)

And I've always treated it that if troops are recoiled/repulsed they always face the way they were facing when repulsed, as per the rules.
It is now 2 to 1 in favor of my option A.

MikeCampbell

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 11:59:24 PM »
I think the wording of the rule is quite clear.

the pssloi recoiling through friends ends "....directly to the rear of these and facing the same way."

In this sentence "facing the same way" is referring to these - I dont' know the technical gramatical terms, but this is the only thing in the sentence that "facing the same way" can refer to - there is nothing at all to connect "facing the same way"to whatever the psiloi were facing at any time - at the very least it would have to say "facing the same way they were before they recoiled".

Marcel Bos

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 12:48:42 PM »
Thanks,

at the very least it would have to say "facing the same way they were before they recoiled".
I think you are right Mike, if it was the meaning of the rules that the psiloi should face the same way as before they recoiled, the rules should have add 'they were before they recoiled' or totally left out the part 'and facing the same way' (what would be the normal thing to do).

On the other hand they are after the turn not in corner to corner contact with the friendly element(s) they passed through, so it is a bad example of rallying behind. ;) But I like this argument.

A new PDF has been attached (based on the arguments of Mike and Valentinian Victor).

Marcel

toby

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 12:55:05 PM »
That just seems counter-intuitive to me. I would have them go through and end up in the facing that they started in.

landmeister

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 01:01:56 PM »
That just seems counter-intuitive to me. I would have them go through and end up in the facing that they started in.

I agree.

Marcel Bos

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 03:05:45 PM »
A new PDF has been attached (based on the arguments of Toby and Landmeister).

It seems at first site counter-intuitive to me to, but if you look at the results of a oblique recoil into a group (in my example a column), it doesn't look so silly anymore. Some elements have to move far back to make room.

On the other hand, maybe it just has to be intuitive.

Maybe it is a issue for the DBMM Commentary or the next version of the rules.





Valentinian Victor

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 09:57:41 PM »
In both your PDF examples I would have expected the Ps to have passed through to the right hand side of the column next to them, its looks very weird for them to imbed themselves like you have shown!
I suppose the moral of the story is always to have your lights at least a base depth away from the front of any of your troops so they can recoil then repulse through them to the rear of those behind.

MikeCampbell

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 11:32:26 PM »
I dont' see it as counter intuitive because I expect skirmishers to conform to other troops and not to worry too much about what way they were facing in the first place - they'er supposed to be in a flexible formation afte all.

Marcel Bos

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 11:53:45 AM »
In both your PDF examples I would have expected the Ps to have passed through to the right hand side of the column next to them, its looks very weird for them to imbed themselves like you have shown!

The Ps, after the recoil, will not clear the base of the 3rd, 4th and 5th Sp-elements, so it is placed immediately beyond the 3rd (=the first such element) Sp-element, other friends moving back to make room. So, I think, the psiloi will just keep moving in the same direction, until they clear the base of the 3rd Sp-element. This is just what I did in my example.

they'er supposed to be in a flexible formation afte all.
Nice argument.

landmeister

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Re: Psiloi passing through
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 12:51:42 PM »
Maybe it is a issue for the DBMM Commentary or the next version of the rules.

Yes, I think a clarification for the Commentary is a must in this case!  :-\