A pass through ending in a group

[Marcel Bos]

An element that will not clear the base of a friendly element it passes through....... is placed immediatly beyond the first such element, other friends moving back to make room.

Please take a look at my examples.

In example 1 the LH moves in from behind the group. The LH would normaly ends its move on Sp's C and D, but because Sp D is 'the first such element' it should end beyond Sp D and before Sp C.
But there are still two possibilities.
In endposition 1A Sp's C,B and A stay in place, but in that case Sp D (not the other friends) is moving back.
In endposition 1B Sp D stays in place, because LH is placed beyond this element. But in that case the other friends are moving forward (not back).
Both look wrong.

Example 2, LH moving in from the front, has the same difficulties, but endposition 2B looks all right.

Please let me know how to play, is it endsituation 1A or 1B and is it endsituation 2A or 2B.   

Thanks,

Marcel

[landmeister]

Hi,

The rule specifies that friends must be moved back if necessary to make room. They are silent about moving forward to make room. So IMO, only those end positions in which friends are moved back (considering their own original facing) are legal. All others are, at least, open to another endless debate.

Because this is an endless debate, isn't it? 

[Marcel Bos]

The rule specifies that friends must be moved back if necessary to make room. They are silent about moving forward to make room. So IMO, only those end positions in which friends are moved back (considering their own original facing) are legal.

So you think that the only possibility is endposition 2B!?   

I would like to read 'other friends are moved to make room', otherwise the first example can't be played at all while the second example would end in endsituation 2B. But they are not that different, so both examples should be possible. Besides you don't have always a choice, so both must be possible one way or the other.
On the other hand a pushed-back element can't be pushed forward.  :'(

Because this is an endless debate, isn't it? 

I just wants to know how other players play it. 

[MikeCampbell]

"Back" is a relative term - what is the back of one element can be the front of another.

IMO the rule is talking about hte move of the interpenetrating element, and "back" refers to that move - so I have always read "back" as meaning "back along the direction the moving element came from" - or as close to that as possible.

So 1A and 2A for me - except that both are wrong - the LH starts interpenetrating Sp B & C, so it should displace them too - not just A and D.

[Marcel Bos]

"Back" is a relative term - what is the back of one element can be the front of another.

IMO the rule is talking about hte move of the interpenetrating element, and "back" refers to that move - so I have always read "back" as meaning "back along the direction the moving element came from" - or as close to that as possible.

Thanks, this is a very plausible explanation. 
But one more question about that, what happens if, for example, two Reg Bd or Ps (behind each other) are in CC and the first one has to recoil. The recoil can pass through the second one, will the second one be pushed into CC?

except that both are wrong - the LH starts interpenetrating Sp B & C, so it should displace them too - not just A and D.

Here I disagree. In example 1 the LH, in its normal movement, doesn?t clear the bases of Sp D and C (in that order), so the first such element is D and the LH should be placed immediatly beyond this element, so it will ends its move between Sp D and C.
So that the LH starts interpenetrating Sp C doesn?t matter, it matters that it doesn?t clear the base of Sp D yet.

[landmeister]

IMO the rule is talking about hte move of the interpenetrating element, and "back" refers to that move - so I have always read "back" as meaning "back along the direction the moving element came from" - or as close to that as possible.

Not bad, but you must be careful then. This could be used to move your friends closer to enemy. I can imagine my e ranks deep wb at 240 p of enemy Bd in my bound. Then I decide to advance my Cv through them and "Oh, my God, I can't clear the last Wb rank!" so that my first two ranks have advanced 3 cm for free and they can charge now 

Sorry, but IMO this interpretation can be used for cheating.

[MikeCampbell]

"except that both are wrong - the LH starts interpenetrating Sp B & C, so it should displace them too - not just A and D.

Here I disagree. In example 1 the LH, in its normal movement, doesn?t clear the bases of Sp D and C (in that order), so the first such element is D and the LH should be placed immediatly beyond this element, so it will ends its move between Sp D and C.
So that the LH starts interpenetrating Sp C doesn?t matter, it matters that it doesn?t clear the base of Sp D yet.

Yes I think you are right & I'm wrong - I've always thought/played "does not clear" as being "enters but does not pass completely through" - but on reflection there's a pretty strong implication that at least het front edge has to ahve passed through - so it is jsut a matter of the rear edge not making it through.

[MikeCampbell]

IMO the rule is talking about hte move of the interpenetrating element, and "back" refers to that move - so I have always read "back" as meaning "back along the direction the moving element came from" - or as close to that as possible.

Not bad, but you must be careful then. This could be used to move your friends closer to enemy. I can imagine my e ranks deep wb at 240 p of enemy Bd in my bound. Then I decide to advance my Cv through them and "Oh, my God, I can't clear the last Wb rank!" so that my first two ranks have advanced 3 cm for free and they can charge now 

Sorry, but IMO this interpretation can be used for cheating.

firstly if it is in the rules then it is NOT cheating - ever.

Secondly.....I not sure exactly what situation yuor example is - if the cavalry advance through the Wb towards the enemy then the Wb are moved back along the cavalry path - none of hte Wb get closer to the enemy.

If the Cavalry are retiring from the enemy (so passing from the front of the Wb to their rear) then yes the Wb might end up closer......but in a seperated formation with cavalry in the middle and generally a mess, which I have no great problem with.

[Marcel Bos]

If the Cavalry are retiring from the enemy (so passing from the front of the Wb to their rear) then yes the Wb might end up closer......but in a seperated formation with cavalry in the middle and generally a mess, which I have no great problem with.

I haven't any problems with that either. But how about my earlier example. In some situations there is just a switch in who is fighting the CC. (Of course in the case of Bd I can understand it, the rules (p. 7) say that 'fresh fighters relieve them', but I asumed that was within an fighting element  .)

But one more question about that, what happens if, for example, two Reg Bd or Ps (behind each other) are in CC and the first one has to recoil. The recoil can pass through the second one, will the second one be pushed into CC?

Any comments on this example?

Thanks

[MikeCampbell]

Sorry for the long delay in answering - I've been away a week.

To your 2nd example - no the element will not be forced forward into CC, because under the "recoiling elements" rule on page 40 recoiling elements that pass through friends always move at least the depth of the friend beign passed through - they are placed immediately to the friend's rear.