Commentries: Timing of placement of hidden obstacles

[foxgom]

Hi

Quote from Commentries:

Timing of Placement
A hidden obstacle is placed as soon as any enemy element ends in contact with it or crosses it. Subsequent
moves by enemy elements in that bound may thus deviate to avoid it given sufficient PIPs.
Committee, based on Phil Barker, DBMM List, #46018

Unquote


Comment:

I have a wide group and add one or two elements in column to the front of the group.
When I move forward, then as soon as the first element crosses the obstacle, the HO is revealed and the group could then stop advancing, assuming I have the Pips ? The majority of the group would thus stop short of the HO. 

A better phrase might be:
"Once a group crossing or reaching a hidden obstacle has completed its move then the hidden obstacle is revealed.  Subsequent moves by enemy elements in that bound may thus deviate to avoid it given sufficient PIPs."


neil fox

[LawrenceG]

Hi



Comment:

I have a wide group and add one or two elements in column to the front of the group.
When I move forward, then as soon as the first element crosses the obstacle, the HO is revealed and the group could then stop advancing, assuming I have the Pips ? The majority of the group would thus stop short of the HO. 

In the definition of hidden obstacles on page 16 it says "enemy that reach it move their full distance for the going they start in", which I assume means they cannot move less than their full distance. 

If I'm wrong, then with your counter-measure you risk having the "scouts" attacked double overlapped and you delay combat between your main battle line and the enemy if there is no obstacle by at least a pair of bounds. So you have to balance costs with benefits.

[Doug M.]

Hi,
this is one that exercised me. I don't like Phil's ruling, as Group moves are assumed to be simultaneous. I also think it conflicts with his previous rulings on group movement, which seem to me to be intended to be restrictive rather than to be flexible (which I do agree with). I suspect Phil has simply not thought of the competition player.

"A hidden obstacle is placed as soon as any enemy element ends in contact with it or crosses it. Subsequent
moves by enemy elements in that bound may thus deviate to avoid it given sufficient PIPs."
DBMM List, #46018

Ideally, I would prefer the announcement of the HO to be at the end of a group move. So you don't get the situation of a group being moved (necessarily physically by element) and as the first element in the group moves, the opponent is compelled to reveal the HO, at which the moving player converts the rest of the group move into a halt.

My wording would be that

"Hidden Obstacles are revealed and must be placed at the completion of any group move which reaches or crosses them"

I think I will raise this on the MM List itself.

regards

Doug

[LawrenceG]

It seems to me that Doug M and foxgom are raising two different issues:

a. Player is going to move elements X, Y and Z as a group. First he physically moves X at which point a hidden obstacle is revealed. Then he decides that Y and Z will not be participating in the group move after all.

b. Player has a T shaped group which moves down the page. The front element detects a hidden obstacle and the rest player decides the whole group will stop at that point, rather than carry on moving to the full extent of its move.

IMO the first one is not allowed. If there is any doubt, the player should declare initially which elements of his group are moving and cannot change this. This is the same as is practised in DBM when approaching terrain that might contain an ambush.

IMO the seond one is not allowed either but this is because you are not allowed to move less than a full move if you meet a hidden obstacle. After completing your full move you must also make a spontaneous move.

If you have other elements which will move after ("subsequent" to) the group move that detected the obstacle, it is pretty obvious that you are at liberty to take into account the new knowledge just as you would be able to take into account the discovery of an ambush, for example. Moves clearly do occur in an order as this affects other issues like elements obstructing each other.