Question from Britcon number 1

[Piffle]

This is my first rules question from britcon. I am sure there are more to come but I can't think of them at the moment.

I have attached a picture which hopefully shows the situation. This question is not from one of my games but one of Esthers so I hope I've got it correct.

Basically the Exp(o) has not been moved or held and so is impetuous. Where does it go?

If it wasn't an expendable it would end up on the flank of the cv(s), but the rules say

Single elements of Expendables, War Wagons or Ships can only move forward or change direction by a pivot or wheel of less than 90^o, or a turn of 180^o.

Therefore it cannot just turn into the flank and so the next target is the Cv(s) General. However as soon as it starts wheeling towards the general its rear corner moves into the Cv(s) and so it can't wheel towards the general.

Having looked for the bit, which in DBM, would let you move out of line with other troops using a wheel we could not find it. It used to be in the Design Philosophy section but is not any more. Has it moved elsewhere?

So any thoughts on what the exp(o) does?

thanks,

Martin

[landmeister]

You're right. You cannot contact the general's rear. You can't contact any other enemy either so you must move forward straight ahead, breaking through your companions in front. Sorry 

[nftaylor]

Why can't you turn 180 degrees with the Exp and end as an overlap on the Cv(S)? 180 degree turn is allowed for Exp and the Cv are "the closest visible enemy element in reach any part of which is in front of a line extending its rear edge."

Niall

[LawrenceG]

Expendables can't overlap.

Can't you just use the 80p extra move to line up to turn 90 degrees to contact the flank of the Cv(S) with your front edge?

Such a pivot is not less than 90 degrees, but the 80p to line up must be exempt from this restriction. If not, then it is very easy to stop expendables contacting you by geometrical ploys.

[MikeCampbell]

I can't see why it can't contact het rear of the general - it moves straight ahead into conrner-to-corner contact, then uses the 80p allowable shift to line up in contact.

also this bit disturbs me:

Therefore it cannot just turn into the flank and so the next target is the Cv(s) General. However as soon as it starts wheeling towards the general its rear corner moves into the Cv(s) and so it can't wheel towards the general.

Tehre used to be a rule in DBM that such corners and simlar "swinging out" into other elements were not interpenetrations, and there has been some discussion about it recently on the DBMM list. 

Basically it would not be a problem "in real life" - when troops wheel their rear corners do NOT swing out like that...and so an umpire would, IMO, be quite correct to say that it was a "geometric ploy designed to stop contact where contact should occur"..or words to that effect...and over-rule it (see top of page 33).

[landmeister]

I can't see why it can't contact het rear of the general - it moves straight ahead into conrner-to-corner contact, then uses the 80p allowable shift to line up in contact.

Mmmmm...Right. Acording to the Commentary it's possible! 

also this bit disturbs me:

Therefore it cannot just turn into the flank and so the next target is the Cv(s) General. However as soon as it starts wheeling towards the general its rear corner moves into the Cv(s) and so it can't wheel towards the general.

Tehre used to be a rule in DBM that such corners and simlar "swinging out" into other elements were not interpenetrations, and there has been some discussion about it recently on the DBMM list. 

Basically it would not be a problem "in real life" - when troops wheel their rear corners do NOT swing out like that...and so an umpire would, IMO, be quite correct to say that it was a "geometric ploy designed to stop contact where contact should occur"..or words to that effect...and over-rule it (see top of page 33).

But Expendables, War Wagons and Ship have their moves specific restricted as per on page 28, and DBM is not DBMM when dealing with interpenetrations.

I think that your first answer is the correct one. The element moves spontaneously straight ahead and then a corner-to-corner contact occurs, so the 80p extra move is applicable here.

[MikeCampbell]

Yes I know it's not in DBMM - but the discussion on Yahoo concluded that it should be, and I suspect it might be in any new version.

[landmeister]

Yes I know it's not in DBMM - but the discussion on Yahoo concluded that it should be, and I suspect it might be in any new version.

Is this included in the Commentary?

[nftaylor]

Expendables can't overlap.

Yes, they can. Read the overlap section again. It's just that the overlap is ignored other than when storming fortifications. That isn't the same as saying that they can't overlap.

Niall