Question about sponnos

[landmeister]

Hi all,

Please, look at diagram 1 enclosed. Element B is irrLH(S) moving spontaneously. Now, please correct me. I have the folloing options:

1. If I move straight ahead, I will contact the left front corner of X, so I will have to line up with it.
2. If I don?t move straight ahead, but "...move my front edge into contact with the closest enemy element in reach part of which is directly in front...", then I contact Y so I must line up. This is a very wierd situation, as it implies that a sponno doesn?t to move straight ahead always, just when you choose to at least when the enemy is in reach! 
3. I can?t contact the flank of X due to the presence of  Y. Not by Y?s TZ, just because Y is in front and in reach. If Y wasn?t there then B could choose a flank attack.

Are all points correct?

Thank you very much in advance

[MikeCampbell]

1/ I'm not sure that you stop at contact with the corner of X because a move ends when you pivot on contact with enemy, and the bit about moving into overlap specifies the front edge - not the front corner - the front corner is NOT part of hte front edge in DBMM.

2/ It means you move into contact.  Sponno moves do NOT have to be straight ahead - that is just one option.

3/ I think this is both right and wrong - it could pivot to hit the flank of X (2nd to last bullet at the bottom of the page), but Y's TZ does actually prevent it if close enough (last para on page 30)

assuming the flank of B is lined up EXACTLY with the flank of X (from previous combat for example), it is arguable that no part of X is directly in front of B, and therefore Y is the target because part of it IS directly in front of B.

Also I'm pretty sure PB has said on the list somewhere that troops no longer stop at overlap when advancing spontaneously - but I'll have to go look that up....

[MikeCampbell]

> A final question - does front corner to front corner contact (i.e. the
> basic
> overlap position) count as contacting enemy?. This also has implications
> for spontaneous moves.
>

Check if the rules say "any contact" (as they sometimes do) or "edge and
corner" contact.

In DBM, sponno automatically stop when they first reach an overlap
position - even if the enemy C-in-C is in reach with his back turned just a
little way away. In DBMM, you can ignore the overlap completely and go
straight on if you choose, or move into frontal contact with one enemy and
flank to flank with the original one. And you do not have to go nuts trying
to measure "Minimum distance between furthest apart front corners" for each
sponno element. Until you get into contact, straight ahead is always the
easiest option.

-mssg 54615

not sure if it helps.....

[landmeister]

Hi again Mike. I see you're the only one member available in this Rules forum! 

1/ I'm not sure that you stop at contact with the corner of X because a move ends when you pivot on contact with enemy, and the bit about moving into overlap specifies the front edge - not the front corner - the front corner is NOT part of hte front edge in DBMM.

This is how I can defend this position. a) Page 30. Last bullet in the page:"[A sponno]...ends its move when [...] contacts friends it cannot pass through or enemy". This contact is not specified, just contact. b) Commentary (on DBMM page 33). "A corner is not part of an edge. However, "EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP..." merely specifies "contacting or contacted". Moving a corner into contact with a corner is "contacting", so extra move can be used to line up."

My reading is that no matter how you cantact your enemy. Your sponno move is immediately finished once you contact it. THEN you must use the 80 p estra move to line up. The extra move IS NOT part of the sponno move.

2/ It means you move into contact.  Sponno moves do NOT have to be straight ahead - that is just one option.

Wow!  I've been playing them with straight trajectories towards their targets. Now thay can move zigzag while you finally contact the enemy!! 

3/ I think this is both right and wrong - it could pivot to hit the flank of X (2nd to last bullet at the bottom of the page), but Y's TZ does actually prevent it if close enough (last para on page 30)

I know that. What I want to know is what happens when the enemy TZ is far away but the sponno still can reach the front enemy (eg LH (F)). Must I contact it because it's in front? I guess so, so in this case I can't contact the flank of X. Right?

assuming the flank of B is lined up EXACTLY with the flank of X (from previous combat for example), it is arguable that no part of X is directly in front of B, and therefore Y is the target because part of it IS directly in front of B.

Yes, but is this applicable even Y's TZ is not avoiding a flank contact on X?

Thank you.

Also I'm pretty sure PB has said on the list somewhere that troops no longer stop at overlap when advancing spontaneously - but I'll have to go look that up....

?)('

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi

I am on forum and available but just dont know the answers to your queries 

In fact the whole 'corner to corner = contact' concept is new to me never mind adding sponno to the mix 

Cheers
 

[MikeCampbell]

I just have a couple of minutes so I am only going to reply to 1 point at the moment ('ll need to spend more time reading the whole thing again

My reading is that no matter how you cantact your enemy. Your sponno move is immediately finished once you contact it.

I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is pretty clear.

Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or slide along the front, but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.

the corner-corner contact = contact is new for me too...but it's pretty simple IMO & no great bother.

[landmeister]

I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is pretty clear.

Sorry, but could you tell me why is it so clear? I can't find it in the rules 

Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or slide along the front, but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.

I understant the logic of it but I can't see why the front edge must come into contact.

the corner-corner contact = contact is new for me too...but it's pretty simple IMO & no great bother.

Same to me. But this comes from Phil himself. 

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi Mike


>I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is >pretty clear.

Hmmm I am not so sure as the final set of bullet points ref sponno moves say that movement stops at various points including when pivoting.
Does not seem confined to front edge only in fact this is one of those aspects that corner contact seems to cover ?

>Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or >slide along the front,

Using the final set of bullet points in sponno section I dont agree that you can end up on flank as it says (penultimate bullet point) that sponno element MUST pivot to end PARALLEL with an ENEMY element that make contact with (no mention of front edge only), flank contact would not be parallel ? I assume one must spend Pips to obtain a flank contact rather then 'free' move with sponno ?

>but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in
>front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.

Again I am confused as the final set of bullet points indicates that a sponno move stops at contact with enemy so if corner to corner is now classed as contact then a sponno move stops there potentially (ie in overlap posistion)

>the corner-corner contact = contact is new for me too...but it's pretty simple IMO & no great bother.
We are finding far from simple at times especially with sponno troops.......................

Cheers
Gary

[Marcel Bos]

Hi everybody,

Most spontanious moves are 'straight ahead' or 'into contact (or overlap) with the closest enemy in reach part of which is directly in front'. So a spontanious element most likely wants to rush in straight forward (towards an enemy it wants to crush).
First I realy don't think that it stops when its side-edge contacts an enemy side-edge, then even 80p extra won't be sufficient (Pythagoras) to contact the enemy side-edge, so I agree with Mike that it only stops when its front edge contacts enemy.
Second I think that front-corner to front-corner contact isn't enough to allow the extra 80p movement to slide in front-edge to front-edge contact. The only way to get front-corner to front-corner contact is when one of the party's already lined-up before. For example I don't think it is the meaning of the rules that an element, which destroyes its opponent and doesn't pursuit, can slide sideways again (and again) to attack the former neighbours of its opponent(s) in front-edge to front-edge combat.

B should be attacking Y.
But only if Y is out of reach it can choose to move straight ahead as far as possible or attack X in front or flank by moving not straight ahead.

Greetings,

Marcel

[landmeister]

Hi Gary,

Hmmm I am not so sure as the final set of bullet points ref sponno moves say that movement stops at various points including when pivoting.
Does not seem confined to front edge only in fact this is one of those aspects that corner contact seems to cover ?

Phil says so, or at least the Commantery says that Phil says so.

Using the final set of bullet points in sponno section I dont agree that you can end up on flank as it says (penultimate bullet point) that sponno element MUST pivot to end PARALLEL with an ENEMY element that make contact with (no mention of front edge only), flank contact would not be parallel ? I assume one must spend Pips to obtain a flank contact rather then 'free' move with sponno ?

The final set of bullets specify the distance and the end of sponnos. You must read the previous set that specify the direction. Second bullet: your front edge must go towards the closest enemy in front or in reach. Some times you can reach only by a flank or rear attack. Otherwise these sponno moves would be impossible!

Again I am confused as the final set of bullet points indicates that a sponno move stops at contact with enemy so if corner to corner is now classed as contact then a sponno move stops there potentially (ie in overlap posistion)

This is how I read it.

[landmeister]

Hi Marcel

Most spontanious moves are 'straight ahead' or 'into contact (or overlap) with the closest enemy in reach part of which is directly in front'. So a spontanious element most likely wants to rush in straight forward (towards an enemy it wants to crush).

Sure, but you're not compelled to move straight forward. I agree with Mike. The second bullet allows you to contact anyone in reach, no matter the trajectory (except for enemy TZ, of course)

First I realy don't think that it stops when its side-edge contacts an enemy side-edge, then even 80p extra won't be sufficient (Pythagoras) to contact the enemy side-edge, so I agree with Mike that it only stops when its front edge contacts enemy.


As Mike said, the sponno is not compelled to move straight forward, so that I can choose an alternative trajectory in a way that my closest front corners contacts the enemy flank (they will not be parallel). This way Pithagoras can't avoid a flank contact because then my furthest front corner will be able to arrive. My front edge is contacting the flank after moving the 80 p, so where's the problem?

Second I think that front-corner to front-corner contact isn't enough to allow the extra 80p movement to slide in front-edge to front-edge contact. The only way to get front-corner to front-corner contact is when one of the party's already lined-up before. For example I don't think it is the meaning of the rules that an element, which destroyes its opponent and doesn't pursuit, can slide sideways again (and again) to attack the former neighbours of its opponent(s) in front-edge to front-edge combat.

Mmmmm...you're right . But then why Phil has said so? 

B should be attacking Y.
But only if Y is out of reach it can choose to move straight ahead as far as possible or attack X in front or flank by moving not straight ahead.

I must admit that this sounds very logical, so I can't understand why Phil allows it. 

[Marcel Bos]

Hi Landmeister,

Most spontanious moves are 'straight ahead' or 'into contact (or overlap) with the closest enemy in reach part of which is directly in front'. So a spontanious element most likely wants to rush in straight forward (towards an enemy it wants to crush).

Sure, but you're not compelled to move straight forward. I agree with Mike. The second bullet allows you to contact anyone in reach, no matter the trajectory (except for enemy TZ, of course)

If there is an enemy element directly in front you are compelled to move straight forward (1st bullet) or to this enemy element (2nd bullet). You can only attack other elements if there is no enemy element directly in front within reach.

Greetings,

Marcel

[landmeister]

Ok. So the final question is, when is the corner to corner contact used? Phil's message in the Commentary is clear, it is a contacted element, so the 80 p nove must be used.

[MikeCampbell]

I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is pretty clear.

Sorry, but could you tell me why is it so clear? I can't find it in the rules 

Page 30, bottom set of bullet popints, last bullet point - a spono move ends "when it....(b) pivots to conform to friends or enemy it contacts" - so the contact itself doesn't end it - the pivoting does - and pivoting to contact enemy is effectively ending in front edge contact.

Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or slide along the front, but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.

I understant the logic of it but I can't see why the front edge must come into contact.

Because there's no rule saying that you stop if you just get corner contact.

You can advance to front edge contact - that's a specific allowed spono move and so when you make that front edge contact the move ends.

Or you can advance straight ahead - in which case the move "...must be the full permitted tactical move distance, except..." (pg 30, above the last set of bullet points) - and none of the exceptions are corner-to-corner contact.  tehrefore you msut keep advancing.

Sorry if this is going back a bit far...

[Marcel Bos]

Ok. So the final question is, when is the corner to corner contact used? Phil's message in the Commentary is clear, it is a contacted element, so the 80 p nove must be used.

I read 'up to an extra 1 base width' as 79.9999999999999999 p. My English dictionary says it would be otherwise up to ..... and including/inclusive.
Think about what this means.

Greetings,

Marcel