Question about sponnos

[MikeCampbell]

Yes "up to" can be inclusive (so up to 80p includes 80p) or exclusive (up to 80p = a max of 79.99999....p)

Inclusive is the normal English usage, and the inclusions of "(80p)" in the rule IMO shows that this is the case here too.

[Marcel Bos]

Inclusive is the normal English usage, and the inclusions of "(80p)" in the rule IMO shows that this is the case here too.

Thanks Mike, this little differance (0,00000000000...1 p) has great consequences.   
But that is a different topic I think, maybe you can look at my new topic "Storming Fortifications" in which I use that information in some other way.

Greetings,

Marcel

[landmeister]

Page 30, bottom set of bullet popints, last bullet point - a spono move ends "when it....(b) pivots to conform to friends or enemy it contacts" - so the contact itself doesn't end it - the pivoting does - and pivoting to contact enemy is effectively ending in front edge contact.

And what happens to: "a) contact friends it cannot pass through or enemy"? I seems pretty clear, the sponno move is finished when you contact enemy. No pivoting is needed in this case.

Because there's no rule saying that you stop if you just get corner contact.

Same answer. Point a) specifies that you end your move when you contact an enemy.

[MikeCampbell]

Do'h!!

you're right - I'd completely mised that!! :/

OK - forget everythign I said - you HAVE to stop when you get o corner contact!!

[Marcel Bos]

OK - forget everythign I said - you HAVE to stop when you get o corner contact!!

..... and contacting B has to shift sideways exactly 80p (=up to 80 p  ) in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with X or if this isn't possible, due to A, contacted X has to shift sideways exactly 80p in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with B!? Right?

[landmeister]

..... and contacting B has to shift sideways exactly 80p (=up to 80 p  ) in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with X or if this isn't possible, due to A, contacted X has to shift sideways exactly 80p in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with B!? Right?

Why can't B line up with X? The position of A is just 3 cm away from X. According to figure 23 on page 60, B can do it, so there's no need to do the opposite.

This raises a world of interesting questions. For example, if a corner is not a front edge, are all exceptions of enemy elements being lined up to my element applicable? Initially not. This means that my element must always line up as it is the moving one. Can you begin to see the consequences? 

[MikeCampbell]

I dont' try to 2nd guess people - if you think there are consequences then please just say what you think they are & I'm happy to comment - I may even get it right...

[LawrenceG]

THe paragraph with "It's direction must be..." tells you the allowed moves.

THe paragraph below, last bullet, tells you when you can stop.

If you choose the "Move its front edge into contact or overlap" option, you can't stop before you are in contact or overlap AND it must be contact or overlap with the element specified. In your example this stops you from contacting the flank of X.  The "Stop" criterion will normally be (b).

If you choose "move straight ahead" then you can stop when you contact enemy, including corner to corner. In this case I think the previous bullet obliges you to pivot until parallel (IMO this means the same or opposite facing, not 90 degrees for a flank contact) although then you would not be moving straight ahead, so maybe not. After the end of the sponno move, you might be able to use the 80p extra move to get into front edge contact with the flank and certainly the front.

By the way, this concept that the 80p  move is a separate move, not part of the preceeding move, is rather alien to me.  So we have tactical, march, spontaneous, outcome and extra moves and you can always add an extra move after any of the other kinds of move. Are you sure it's right?

 
 

[Marcel Bos]

Quote from: landmeister on September 18, 2008, 07:52:34 PM
Why can't B line up with X? The position of A is just 3 cm away from X. According to figure 23 on page 60, B can do it, so there's no need to do the opposite.

If there is enough room between X and A you are totaly right.


Quote from: landmeister on September 18, 2008, 07:52:34 PM
For example, if a corner is not a front edge, are all exceptions of enemy elements being lined up to my element applicable? Initially not. This means that my element must always line up as it is the moving one. Can you begin to see the consequences? 

Sorry I don't know exactly what you mean.   

But about the whole situation. By seeing corner-to-corner contact as contact followed by the possibility  of moving 80p (not a fraction less) by one of both parties there will be much less possibilities to explore gaps in the enemy line.
I rather see: 
1. An spontanious element rushes in until its front edge reaches the enemy
2. The extra movement doesn't includes 80p, so it is a maximum of 79.99999999999...p
I believe that Phil had fig. 11 (p. 56) in mind when he said that corner-to-corner contact was contact, not a corner-to-corner contact where both partys are not even in each others threatzone.
Just some thoughts!   

[landmeister]

I dont' try to 2nd guess people - if you think there are consequences then please just say what you think they are & I'm happy to comment - I may even get it right...

Yes, sorry.  The terrible consequences are those deatiled by Marcel Bos in reply#8 of this thread (see above). Now, every time your opponent element is destroyed repuled or fled, you're automatically in contact corner to corner with the enemy element that is overlapping you, so you must line up front to front with it! 

[landmeister]

If you choose "move straight ahead" then you can stop when you contact enemy, including corner to corner.

No, you must stop. You must stop when you contact enemy, so you cannot go on.

In this case I think the previous bullet obliges you to pivot until parallel (IMO this means the same or opposite facing, not 90 degrees for a flank contact) although then you would not be moving straight ahead, so maybe not. After the end of the sponno move, you might be able to use the 80p extra move to get into front edge contact with the flank and certainly the front.

I agree. From a strictly trigonometrical point of view, I can't use the 80 p (too far to be legal) to contact the flank if I stop corner to corner, so it must be a front-to front contact. I think this point is at least finally solved! 

By the way, this concept that the 80p  move is a separate move, not part of the preceeding move, is rather alien to me.  So we have tactical, march, spontaneous, outcome and extra moves and you can always add an extra move after any of the other kinds of move. Are you sure it's right?

Sure. Page 33, EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP IN CLOSE COMBAT. Last sentence: "This can be in either side's bound, is extra to normal maximum move, and expends no extra pips.

[landmeister]

Sorry I don't know exactly what you mean.   

Sorry. I mean those cases when is the enemy who must line up and not the moving element.

But about the whole situation. By seeing corner-to-corner contact as contact followed by the possibility  of moving 80p (not a fraction less) by one of both parties there will be much less possibilities to explore gaps in the enemy line.

I agree. This is another of the terrible consequences you foresaw a few messages before. Now all corner to corner contacts are future front to front contacts! 

I rather see: 
1. An spontanious element rushes in until its front edge reaches the enemy
2. The extra movement doesn't includes 80p, so it is a maximum of 79.99999999999...p

No. The extra moves is designed to be 80 p just because it is thought to allow legal contacts.

I believe that Phil had fig. 11 (p. 56) in mind when he said that corner-to-corner contact was contact, not a corner-to-corner contact where both partys are not even in each others threatzone.
Just some thoughts!   

I would prefer this interpretation, believe me. Can anyone try to pass this question to the author, please.

[MikeCampbell]

I agree. This is another of the terrible consequences you foresaw a few messages before. Now all corner to corner contacts are future front to front contacts! 

Yes - Phil has said this on the DBMM list.

It's not a great problem - it is different from how it "used to be", but once you accept it life goes on just fine.

As for the suggestion that breakthroughs cannot now be made because corner-to-corner contact means you have to line up........there's alsways the option to spend PIPs to move through the gap!!

Remember this thread is only talking about spontaneous advances - and one of the things that has happened with these is that they are much more limted than they used to be - if you dont' spend PIPs on yuor impetuous troops then there's only a handful of options that can happen - so yes, if yuo dont' spend PIPs to move through a gap in the enemy line your troops will possibly not do it with spontaneous advances.

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi chaps

>As for the suggestion that breakthroughs cannot now be made because corner-to-corner contact means you have >to line up........

Hmmm I dont agree that once a corner-to-corner contact means you MUST line up.
Compulsory lining up is surely only related to TZs for which IIRC such corner contact (or flank edge) does not count ?

I told you this was a rather confusing new twist to how the game is played 

Cheers

[MikeCampbell]

IMO it is compulsory - the wording is:

""...element or group that is not lined up moves up to..."

Note that it "moves" - not that it "can move" or "is allowed to move" - the wording is prescriptive - ie it tells you what you do, not what your options are.

But I don't think it is confusing if people read what is actually there.

A lot of the "problems" with DBMM IMO come down to people not wanting to believe the rules - they've done things some other way (either in other rules or due to mis-reading) and would rather keep doign it that way.