Another sponno question

[landmeister]

Dear all

Am I the only one finding these strange situations? Or just the only one who can't find the answer? 
Please look at the digram. Orange columns are enemy Pk (F). White are my Wb columns. It's my bound and I decide to let them move sponno as columns. My three columns move straight ahead until they contact enemy. My question is, what happens with my column E-H?

The other two columns hace contacted enemy front corners, so the fight there, but E-H has contacted a flank AND is within 5's TZ. We didn't know how to deal with it so we left it as shown in the diagram 

Any help?

Thank you

[MikeCampbell]

Yep - it's moved forward as far as it can - as far as I can see there's nothing else need be done.

[Valentinian Victor]

And as far as I'm aware the Pk columns would then at the end of the movement phase have the option of remaining in place, counting as being in front edge contact and being overlapped once, or lining upto face. If both pike columns line up then that opens a gap for the center Wb column to create havoc!

[landmeister]

Yep - it's moved forward as far as it can - as far as I can see there's nothing else need be done.

But isn't it an illegal contact? 

[landmeister]

And as far as I'm aware the Pk columns would then at the end of the movement phase have the option of remaining in place, counting as being in front edge contact and being overlapped once, or lining upto face. If both pike columns line up then that opens a gap for the center Wb column to create havoc!

My opponent decided to remain static. The problem was that both Wb columns lost their combats so the Pk had to pursue. It created a very strange situation as they advanced straight ahead agaist nothing!! 

Is this the way how must it be played?

[MikeCampbell]

I don't think it's an illegal contact, because the blocking elements are in close combat &/or providing rear support so do not get moved out of the way.

As for the follow-ups IMO the pike will follow up in 2 formations like the bent column in fig 16 & end in full front edge contact and still overlapped by E-H - and possible E-H wil then have room to swing onto their flanks.

[landmeister]

I don't think it's an illegal contact, because the blocking elements are in close combat &/or providing rear support so do not get moved out of the way.

I see. I think I didn't take that into account. Thank you.

As for the follow-ups IMO the pike will follow up in 2 formations like the bent column in fig 16 & end in full front edge contact and still overlapped by E-H - and possible E-H wil then have room to swing onto their flanks.

Interesting. I like it.

[william]

As for the follow-ups IMO the pike will follow up in 2 formations like the bent column in fig 16 & end in full front edge contact and still overlapped by E-H - and possible E-H wil then have room to swing onto their flanks.

Hi Mike,
      really pushing my luck here, of course I think that the pike should follow up in a bent column as you say and indeed played it that way in one of my games but I think that pursuing elements have to move straight ahead. I have had expendables contacted on their side edge, win and pursue straight ahead instead of turning to face after contact and chase the presumptuous attackers, is this wrong?

[MikeCampbell]

Yes they pursue straight ahead - but they are then eligible for the 80p free movement to line up - so I guess it's up to the player to decide what he wants to do....

[LawrenceG]

It looks to me that the contact is illegal both under the "moving into close combat" and "threat Zone" rules.

If the impetuous elements can't make a complete legal spontaneous move, they don't move at all (bottom of page 30).

It may be possible to wheel the front of the column to get an overlap on 1, but I can't tell from the diagram.

[landmeister]

It looks to me that the contact is illegal both under the "moving into close combat" and "threat Zone" rules.

If the impetuous elements can't make a complete legal spontaneous move, they don't move at all (bottom of page 30).

Mmmmm...I've re-read it and I must admit that you may be right. The middle column can't contactthe flank because of the presence of the enemy TZ. Cannot overlap either, so it seems pretty clear that they can't move sponno 

It may be possible to wheel the front of the column to get an overlap on 1, but I can't tell from the diagram.

No, believe me. The head of the column was pinned by the enemy TZ.

[Marcel Bos]

I have a bit of an other opinion, but it will be a mess!   

First spontanious elements will advance as either individual elements or as a column, the one in the front moves first. Let say they started all even. So you may choose which of the columns moves first.

I have started with I/J/K/L moving straight forward where it must immediatly pivot around the point of contact to end parallel to the enemy it meets. (p. 30.) It then moves immediatly (not at the end of the movement phase) the extra 80p to line-up in close combat (p. 33). The column will follow like fig. 16 (p. 57)

I then moved E/F/G/H forward. But moving into the TZ of 5 this column had to conform to 5. I moved it the maximum distance of 200p. It didn't reach 5.

Moving A next, the column behind couldn't follow, so it moved separately.
Next, B could be moved in overlap, followed by C/D.

Ok? it is a mess, but it is spontanious.
I hope I got it right somehow.   

Of course by moving the columns in a different order it would be an other situation.

Greetings,

Marcel

[landmeister]

Ok? it is a mess, but it is spontanious.
I hope I got it right somehow.   

Of course by moving the columns in a different order it would be an other situation.

Well, this a way to solve it, of course. But I'm looking for an answer to my initial question because I want to know what to do next time I find the same situation! 

[Marcel Bos]

Well, this a way to solve it, of course. But I'm looking for an answer to my initial question because I want to know what to do next time I find the same situation! 

By handling the columns one after another the situation can't occur I think. 
If I play first I/J/K/L, second A/B/C/D, third E/F/G/H, the last column moves just straight ahead until it reaches D.

The keypoint is that spontanious elements should be moved independently as columns (if possible) or elements one after another and that that move should be completed, including the 80p extra (somewhere I read that this should be done immediatly after the move), before the next one moves. I think there will be much less strange situations that way.

Of course other arguments are most welcome.   

I hope this avoids the same situation next time.

Marcel

[landmeister]

Sure, but I have the option of moving my columns straight ahead only and then contact an enemy corner. I know that your solution is one of the multiple possible solutions, but I want to kno how to solve mine  .
Please, don't take me wrong, but why should I change my way of playing when the rules let me do it as I want? 

This is certainly a limit situation, but this is also the best way to know the rules for future similar situations. I considered the option of kinking all my columns, but the context outside them was not good for me, so I needed to move them straight ahead!  .