When do you line up in TZ?

[Piffle]

I have been playing it that you can use the free 80 paces to line up at any time during your move. Is this right? I don't see any part of the rules which specify when you have to do it other than during either sides bound which implies anytime.

It can be useful to move to the TZ line up and then go in if there was an element blocking you from moving straight in.

Clarification of this would be really useful.

thanks

Piffle

[andrew]

Hi

You do the slide once you have made contact or (as I see it) optionally once you are in the TZ (page 33).  So this would happen as you complete your group or element move, not during.  If it is necessary to do this before making contact, you cannot have a sideways or oblique movement to make it work (page 28) - also at the top of page 28 is a sentence concerning being 'blocked'.  See also the top of page 33 regarding geometric ploys and blocking elements.  Consider also that all march moves (other than the last) must be full distance (page 28) so you can't do a short move up to the TZ, line up (to say the rear or flank) and then march into contact.  I believe you were however referring to front to front contact so keep in mind the point on the bottom of 28 that states you can only do the slide to 'line up in front edge combat'.

Andrew

[Piffle]

First off thanks for the reply its greatly appreciated.

Second, oh dear, just when I thought I had understood it all and was happy that the silly geometric rubbish had been stopped I find out that they aren't. I thought I had found something that had got rid of the most annoying thing about DBM.

Please see my attached diagram. When I'm using my Leidang army despite my best attempts to line up nicely with the enemy when I set up there always seems to be some sort of drift or difference in base widths that ends up with the situation like the one shown in the diagram. Though normally not fortunate enough to get into auxilia.

Blade A and B are of a different command to blades C, D and E. They all used to be in line but the command with blades A and B got more pips and therefore got into combat last turn or maybe even moved first this turn, moved straight forward, contacted the auxilia and shifted sideways to line up. Thats fine we all know they can do that.

Now however it is impossible to get the other blades in without copious quantities of pips? At least that is what I read from your answer.

What I had thought was that they move forward and as soon as they get into the TZ they are TZed and so can shift to the right to line up using the free 80 paces and then continue their movement into combat with the appropriate auxilia (blade C vs auxilia C etc.).

If however they can't do that I see two possibilities for getting blades C, D and E into combat:

1: Blades D and E move in as a group and conform using 80 pace rule. Then blade C moves as a single element into combat with auxilia C. Total pip cost if regular 2, if irregular 3 for a move which surely should only cost 1 pip.

2: Move blades C, D and E a short move forward far enough to get into the TZ and line up opposite. Then move into combat the following turn. After considering this option I have realised it can't be done as the bottom of page 28 states that they can only shift sideways if lining up in combat. So it is therefore impossible to ever move blades C, D and E as a group into combat with auxilia C, D and E as long as blade B is where it is.

The other option is to move D and E into combat and leave C behind and just not bother moving it which is obviously not really a good plan.

So is option 1 the only way to get blades C, D and E into combat? I have had opponents with the same problem and it still annoys me as I see no reason why they cannot just charge in as after all if blade B was not there then they could.

thanks,

Piffle

[landmeister]

I agree with Piffle. I find it silly.  . I hand not taken into account what is said on page 28 for groups and I found it simply wonderful. Now this looks like DBM again! 

[andrew]

I agree it doesn't look right but that is what the rules say - unless someone can quote something else?  The other option is that you move CDE before AB or you move DE into contact with CD (and slide left) and bring another element up into contact with E (or slide C along) - not perfect and it can be annoying when you find yourself in this situation because you were partially offset from your opponent at deployment.  At the risk of stating the obvious, the better option is to get CDE in first.

Andrew

[foxgom]

Hi

You do the slide once you have made contact or (as I see it) optionally once you are in the TZ (page 33).  So this would happen as you complete your group or element move, not during.  If it is necessary to do this before making contact, you cannot have a sideways or oblique movement to make it work (page 28) - also at the top of page 28 is a sentence concerning being 'blocked'.  See also the top of page 33 regarding geometric ploys and blocking elements.  Consider also that all march moves (other than the last) must be full distance (page 28) so you can't do a short move up to the TZ, line up (to say the rear or flank) and then march into contact.  I believe you were however referring to front to front contact so keep in mind the point on the bottom of 28 that states you can only do the slide to 'line up in front edge combat'.

Andrew

Hi

I think the three blades the right can simply advance straight ahead into contact for 1 PIP.

Page 28, last paragraph " A group move.... It cannot....include....any sideways or oblique movement except to line in front edge combat..."

i.e. it is possible to move a group sideways in order to get in combat.
This matches the spirit of DBMM ("no geometric tricks" etc).

I do not understand your sentence "So this would happen as you complete your group or element move, not during."
Why not during?
The Bd advance into the TZ, line up and continue advancing into contact.
I have not seen anything that says when the lining up takes place during a bound.


neil fox

[andrew]

You said it yourself (and I also quoted this part in my earlier post) : "except to line up in front edge combat" - at the time you are doing the sliding you aren't in front edge contact so you cannot make the sideways / oblique movement part way through your move.  What you are wanting to do is move forwards, slide sideways, and move forwards again - the rules state you can only slide "to line up in front edge combat", so you slide to line up in front edge combat, whereas what you have described is sliding to line up in the TZ.

[foxgom]

You said it yourself (and I also quoted this part in my earlier post) : "except to line up in front edge combat" - at the time you are doing the sliding you aren't in front edge contact so you cannot make the sideways / oblique movement part way through your move.  What you are wanting to do is move forwards, slide sideways, and move forwards again - the rules state you can only slide "to line up in front edge combat", so you slide to line up in front edge combat, whereas what you have described is sliding to line up in the TZ.

Wow, this is really splitting hairs.
Then where does it say that the alignment in an enemy TZ has to be at the start or beginning of a move and cannot be during that move?
Your argument seems to be leading to horrible complicated rule, difficult to explain to beginners and against the spirit of DBMM (no geometric ploys....).

neil fox

[landmeister]

I'm afraid that only single elements can choose to line up when entering into a TZ. I think the logiic behind it is:

1. Page 33. A TZed element (single or belonging to a group is not specified) can line up.
2. Page 28. Groups can only move sideways is contacting front to front (clearly specified).
3. Ergo only single element can benefit from sliding before contact.

Sorry, but I don't like it at all.  :'( I think this is clearly against the spirit of the rules.

[MikeCampbell]

It says you can slide in order to line up in front edge contact - it doesn't say that the slide has to be WHEN you are in front edge contact.

So IMO as long as the slide allows you to line up in front edge contact at the end of the move then you can do it at any stage of eth move you like.

[andrew]

The rule on page 28 is quite specific : "[A group move] ... cannot ... include ... any sideways or oblique movement except to line up in front edge combat."  I would love to be able to do the sliding while I am out of contact but it isn't allowed unless you are sliding into front edge combat, which you aren't.  This isn't about geometric ploys to prevent combat, it is about your own elements blocking your ability to get into contact.

[MikeCampbell]

You're adding something to page 28 that simply isn't there.

Pages 32 and 33 quite specifically state that a group can slide sideways when in a TZ and not contacted - they coem after 28 and so superseed anything you think you may have read there.

[andrew]

They coem after 28 and so superseed anything you think you may have read there.

There's no need to be condescending about - anyone can play that game anonymously.  To quote you "where does it say that" page 33 supercedes page 28?  Have a read of page 28 and you might just read what I wrote.  If we are going to used that sort of warped logic (of after = supercedes) then how come you don't accept the image of sliding into a gap supercedes the words about making frontal combat?  I think you are making this up as you go along!!!! 

[foxgom]

The rule on page 28 is quite specific : "[A group move] ... cannot ... include ... any sideways or oblique movement except to line up in front edge combat."  I would love to be able to do the sliding while I am out of contact but it isn't allowed unless you are sliding into front edge combat, which you aren't.  This isn't about geometric ploys to prevent combat, it is about your own elements blocking your ability to get into contact.

Hi Andrew,

I understand your above quoted reasoning, but, as the Germans would say, I think you?re being more papal than the Pope ! 

The group is moving sideways in order to finish their move in close combat on that turn.
Agreed, half way through the move, when the slide takes place, they are not (yet) in combat but at the end of the move they are.

There is an aspect of geometric ploy about it:
I have two groups. Group 1 attacks first, moves straight ahead for and conforms to the enemy, thus blocking Group 2, which cannot then simply attack straight ahead.
If I move Group 2 straight ahead into contact first, then it does work.
Maybe I have a reason for wanting/needing to move Group 1 first (e.g. not enough PIPs to achieve both contacts this bound).

I do feel your interpretation leads to an "ugly" and unnecessarily complicated rule, that I do not think any of us (including yourself) like.  It?s the kind of interpretation that puts off new players, who then end up playing FOG. 

If I was umpiring a competition (which I do ),  I would allow the blades to move into contact for 1 PIP.
If there is a serious number of players who interpret the rules differently, the committee should make a  clarification.

neil

[andrew]

Hi Neil

Often in a game my opponent or I decide that we should re-sequence a move or two to avoid exactly this situation where you have elements tripping over eachother.  I'm not that bad - I often indicate such solutions to my opponents to help them avoid these sorts of problems.  It is just a game after all!

I agree that the more enjoyable a game is, the more people will play it - but it must have some sort of substance if it is to enjoy any sort of longevity of popularity / existence.  To have such "substance" it must be rigorously examined / tested - as is currently the case with issues such as this et al.

I don't have a problem with retrospectively deciding the Blades should have gone in first in the same bound, but to try and claim it the following bound is (IMO) a different proposition - especially so if my opponent has a tendency for trying to make moves without paying for them.  I have never tried to do this myself because, according to my interpretation of page 28, you can't make sideways or oblique movements unless it is to get into front edge combat.

I understand what it is that has been proposed and I can certainly see the point of view (and would be happy to accept it, if it was 'official')- I just don't agree with the current interpretation.  The reason being because I can't reconcile the interpretation with the rules on both pages 33 and 28.  Some people (not you) can't seem to see that page 28 is in any way relevant (or that it even exists given I "might have read it" or am adding something that isn't there) yet the wording is very specific.

Further, given page 33 says it is "extra movement to line up in close combat" and "the extra movement is used only to line up with an enemy front flank or rear edge" then I can't see anything that says you can do this during the move, as some people claim.  So unfortunately it's a no win.  Much like the lack of a definition for "lined up".  Until it is "fixed" or clarified, it will be open to differing interpretations.  But at the end of the day it's not like it is worth losing any sleep over....

Cheers and happy wargaming!
Andrew