Brilliant C-in-C's and AP costs of certain Strategem's

[Valentinian Victor]

Ok, so 'Brilliant' C-in-C's can use strategem's 'usually not available to them'. What are the AP cost's of these strategems, especially the ones that are list dependent i.e. not usually available to the army in question?

[MikeCampbell]

You are mis-reading - it doesn't say "otherwise not avaialble to them" - it says "otherwise not available,...." - ie there are some stratagems that are only available as a brilliant stroke and hence only available to brilliant generals - eg flank attack costs 5 AP but also requires use of a brilliant stroke.

[Valentinian Victor]

I think we are both right. Armies that have a ?Brilliant? C-in-C have access to stratagems other armies don?t have access to. These have to be paid for before deployment, using AP?s. However, the sentence implies that if you use one of your brilliant strokes you can use a stratagem that you did not have access to before deployment, or one not paid for, and therefore does not need an AP cost when activated. Why else would that section say that ?a Brilliant C-in-C can expend a BRILLIANT STROKE to SPECIFY a STRATAGEM OTHERWISE NOT AVAILABLE??
The implication could be that a Brilliant C-in-C could use a brilliant stroke to say activate a ?Feigned Flight?, which the Brilliant C-in-C could have paid for before deployment but may not have done in order to use another stratagem,  or to activate a stratagem it could not have used at all, such as ?False reinforcements?.

[LawrenceG]

I would look at it this way.

Some strategems specify in the description that they can only be used as a brilliant stroke. These are available as a brilliant stroke, "otherwise not available".

A strategem you have not paid for is just plain "not available" even with a brilliant stroke. There is no "otherwise".

IMO this is what Phil meant when he wrote it.

It would have been clearer if he had written "... use a strategem only available as a brilliant stroke."

[Platypus]

A strategem you have not paid for is just plain "not available" even with a brilliant stroke. There is no "otherwise".

Well, a Brilliant General can use Concealed command as a brilliant stroke. It says "Cost 5AP unless a brilliant stroke".

I think that is the only one.

G^is,
John

[Valentinian Victor]

I would look at it this way.

Some strategems specify in the description that they can only be used as a brilliant stroke. These are available as a brilliant stroke, "otherwise not available".

A strategem you have not paid for is just plain "not available" even with a brilliant stroke. There is no "otherwise".

IMO this is what Phil meant when he wrote it.

It would have been clearer if he had written "... use a strategem only available as a brilliant stroke."

I would agree if it were not worded the way it is. It quite plainly states on page 15 that you can use a brilliant stroke to use a stratagem usually not available. There is only one way to read this, and that is that a brilliant C-in-C can use any strategem once a game has started, but only if he expends one of his brilliant strokes.

[LawrenceG]

Try this then.

Some stratagems are available otherwise than using a brilliant stroke.

These do not qualify as "otherwise not available" (because they can be available otherwise).

Hence a brilliant stroke does not allow you to use these stratagems.

A brilliant stroke can only be used for strategems which say they are not available except by a brilliant stroke.

If it was Phil's intention that a brilliant stroke could be used to trigger any strategem, he would have saved ink and written "any strategem".

[MikeCampbell]

[I would agree if it were not worded the way it is. It quite plainly states on page 15 that you can use a brilliant stroke to use a stratagem usually not available. There is only one way to read this, and that is that a brilliant C-in-C can use any strategem once a game has started, but only if he expends one of his brilliant strokes.

Yes there is only 1 way to read this - and it's NOT what you are reading!

The only way to read it is that there are some stratagems wheich require a brilliant stroke and can't be used unless you have one.  End of story - Lawrence wrote it perferctly clearly above.

Sorry - your comprehension of this segment is just plain wrong.

There is another factor which no-one has noted - and that is that if you use your 2 brilliant strokes for something else (eg +2 in combat) then you can't use any stratagem that  requires one even if you have paid for it and selected it for use.

[LawrenceG]

Actually have a degree of sympathy for Valentinian's interpretation of the exact wording of the rules, but my intuition tells me it's not what Phil intended.

[Marcel Bos]

What are the AP cost's of these strategems?

If have tried to answer this question to myself in my DBMM Army List generator. 
http://dbmm.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=35
Maybe it is helpful to you to. Change the 'CinC' in 'CinC br' or 'CinC in' and try some Stratagems.

Greetings,

Marcel

[Valentinian Victor]

I've had it pointed out to me that another possible interpretation of this is that you can expend one of your brilliant strokes before deployment to enable you to use one of the normally, but unpaid for, stratagems you can have for 'free', but leaving you with only one brilliant stroke to use during the game. This person also agreed you could interpret it as enabling you to expend a brilliant stroke at the beginning of the game to enable you to use any stratagem, not normally available, as I also suggested.
Perhaps in V1.1 Phil needs to just reword this section to say 'Some stratagem's require the use of a brilliant stroke'.

[Tim Child]

I've had it pointed out to me that another possible interpretation of this is that you can expend one of your brilliant strokes before deployment to enable you to use one of the normally, but unpaid for, stratagems you can have for 'free', but leaving you with only one brilliant stroke to use during the game. This person also agreed you could interpret it as enabling you to expend a brilliant stroke at the beginning of the game to enable you to use any stratagem, not normally available, as I also suggested.
Perhaps in V1.1 Phil needs to just reword this section to say 'Some stratagem's require the use of a brilliant stroke'.

Or "Some stratagems are only available to brilliant generals and/or involve the use of a brilliant stroke".  Feigned flight, for example, is available to all generals but can be triggered with a BS instead of the 3 PIPs.

Tim Child