Contacting a flank with extra movement

[foxgom]

Hi

This question arose in Milan when we noticed that Germans & Italians understand some rules differently:

see the two attachments.

Case 1 is simple.

Ps 2 can just reach Ax 1 and gains extra movement to line up.

No discussion.


Case 2 is different.
Ps 2 is further away and can reach Ax1 with one corner only.

Page 33 second paragraph.
"An element initiates close combat... by moving it?s front EDGE into contact....with the enemys:

It is not enough that only one corner reaches Ax 1.
Ps 2 must be able to get its edge into contact.
The corner is not the edge.

This helps reduce some of the very long movement when hitting flanks.


How does the rest of the world see this one ?

neil

[LawrenceG]

The last paragraph in section MOVING INTO CLOSE COMBAT prohibits certain moves to contact, including contacting with a rear corner, but not with a front corner.

The 2nd move would therefore appear to be legal.

The 80 p free move converts the contact into one which intiates close combat.

[landmeister]

I agree, but then the ugly argument about front corner to front enemy corner contact only (no front to front contact) arises again. 

We need some clarifications now...

[MikeCampbell]

the only way you can initiate close combat is moving yuor front endge into contact - the front corner does not count as part of the front edge - and that's all there is to it AFAIK.  so moving your front corner into contact with his side edge is not legal.

the last corner does prohibit some things - but that does not mean that everything else is legal.

[LawrenceG]

As said paragraph explicitly says "rear corner" not just "corner", it strongly suggests that a front corner can be moved into contact.

The rule for contacting the enemy front edge says "Both front corners of the initiating element must end touching the enemy front corners except..." so it clearly is permissible for a front corner to be moved into contact with enemy. 


Interpreting the rule as:

A rear edge cannot be moved into any contact with enemy.
A rear corner cannot be moved into contact with enemy unless the adjacent side edge also contacts the same enemy.
A side edge can be moved into contact with an enemy only if (a) it contacts an enemy side edge and no other edges or (b) the front edge also moves into combat.
A front corner can be moved into contact with enemy only if (a) the corresponding side edge contacts the same enemy or (b) the front edge also moves into combat.

would be perfectly playable but it is not what the rules actually say. It is also much longer than the existing wording.  I'm not sure what Phil's intention here was. The existing wording prevents a rear corner contacting enemy even as part of a mutual side edge contact, which I don't think was the intention, so some clarification is definitely needed.

[Tim Child]

The rule for "Extra movement to line up in close combat or in a TZ" (p.33) says that "A contacting, contacted or TZ-ed element or group that is not lined up moves up to an extra base width (80p) to do so if the extra movement is used only to line up with an enemy front, flank or rear edge".

There is nothing specifically in that wording that limits contact to only being by an edge.  Contact by a corner would seem to suffice, as long as the additional 80p is then enough to get you into proper front edge combat (it won't always be enough, as a little fun with Pythagoras etc will demonstrate).

FWIW, I have come to the conclusion that if you can contact with a corner, you can then use the extra 80p pivot/shift/wobble to line up your front edge in combat in one of the situations further up on p.33.

Tim Child

[MikeCampbell]

As said paragraph explicitly says "rear corner" not just "corner", it strongly suggests that a front corner can be moved into contact.

I couldn't disagree more - you are reading stuff into it that is simply not there.  Saying that a rear edge cannot move into contact does NOT say that a front edge CAN - at best it leaves it open. 

However in this case that opening is definitively shut because the first sentence in para 2 of "Moving into close combat" which says that you do so by moving your front edge into contact - and that's it.

[LawrenceG]

"contact" and "combat" are not the same.

You can establish a contact that is not a combat by moving into mutual side edge contact.

It seems to me that you can also establish a contact that is not a combat by moving a front corner into contact. You may then be able to use an 80p free move to get the front edge into contact, hence initiating a combat.

This would be no different from moving a front edge into partial contact with an enemy front edge, which in itself does not meet the criteria specified for initiating a combat by moving a front edge into contact with an enemy front edge, then using the 80p free move to line up and convert it into a combat.

[andrew]

Page 29 of the commentary:

Edges and Corners
A corner is not part of an edge. that is why I specify "edge and corner" contact.
However, "EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP..." merely specifies "contacting or contacted".
Moving a corner into contact with a corner is "contacting", so extra move can be used to line up.
Phil Barker, DBMM List #49430

Andrew

[landmeister]

Page 29 of the commentary:

Edges and Corners
A corner is not part of an edge. that is why I specify "edge and corner" contact.
However, "EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP..." merely specifies "contacting or contacted".
Moving a corner into contact with a corner is "contacting", so extra move can be used to line up.
Phil Barker, DBMM List #49430

Period.

[foxgom]

Hi

Please note that under some circumstances, it could be possible for a corner to touch the enemy flank, but the 80p would not suffice to line up !

This would be the case if the corner can only just reach the flank and the attacking element is almost parallel to the target element.

Very messy!

I much prefer (and think that the rules state) that you have to get an edge into contact to gain the 80p.

neil

[MikeCampbell]

Ok - I sit corrected

[andrew]

I much prefer (and think that the rules state) that you have to get an edge into contact to gain the 80p.

Hi Neil

See Phil's clarification per my earlier post.  The initial assessment from Lawrence & Tim, as confirmed by Mike, was correct in that the Ps in the 2nd diagram can pivot/wheel into a legal contact/combat.  But you are correct that, in some circumstances, 80 paces is insufficient to make a legal contact.

Andrew