Making a column

[foxgom]

Hi

This is the third of four issues which were raised at the Milan event.

The Italians use a PIP-table which is in use in the UK that showed that even regular troops making a column should pay 2 Pips.

See attachment.

Ax 1 moves full move.
Ax 2 moves less than a full move.

The second PIP comes from page 27 (d) Difficult Evolutions " Both a groups front corners  move less than the full distance..."

In the diagram the corner of Ax1 has moved the full distance, so BOTH of the corners have NOT moved less than full distance.  Only one of the corners moved less than full distance.

I think that making a column with regular troops costs 1 Pip.

Irregular troops pay 2 Pips to make a column , because "Irregular Ineptness: any element moves other than straight ahead...".

I have found a similar PIP table on Martins Vexillia page that shows IMO the correct number of PIPs for making a column:
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2008/08/dbmm-for-befuddled-part-6.html

See also Martins
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2008/10/dbmm-for-befuddled-part-8.html
This shows that under some circumstances it could be argued that a regular group does pay 2 PIPs to make a column.  It depends on whether you consider the group at the start of the move or at the end of the move.
Martin pleads for a clarification and I would like to back this up.
I would also plead for a simple solution.

In any replies, please leave out any Italian jokes...
The guys in Milan got 28 DBMM players together and three of us travelled about 7 hours one way across the Alps in winter to play with them.  We had good and fair games, but if we are going to make all this effort, we would all like to understand the rules.


neil fox

[vexillia]

I have found a similar PIP table on Martins Vexillia page that shows IMO the correct number of PIPs for making a column:
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2008/08/dbmm-for-befuddled-part-6.html

See also Martins
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2008/10/dbmm-for-befuddled-part-8.html
This shows that under some circumstances it could be argued that a regular group does pay 2 PIPs to make a column.  It depends on whether you consider the group at the start of the move or at the end of the move.
Martin pleads for a clarification and I would like to back this up.
I would also plead for a simple solution.

I even sent an email to Phil Barker highlighting this issue but no reply after 4 weeks (and counting).

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
Personal web log
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/

[landmeister]

We should gather all this necessary clarifications and send them to Phil with the message "A present from all DBMM players". Maybe he would answer 

[MikeCampbell]

Someone somewhere has a wiki of issues that should suffice - I know I've seen it once, but now I can't find it! :/

I wonder if the Italian mis-reading of this is just 'cos they don't have English as a first language - it's clear enough to me that it's only 1 PIP for regulars and 2 for Irregs

[Tim Child]

It's not just the Italians that raise this issue, as Martin's query to Phil makes clear. 

I had to rule on this at Warfare and my ruling was as per Neil's position - Regulars only cost 1 PIP to go into column (as long as the head of the column makes its full move).  The player querying the point took the view that the reference to the front corners of the group was to the elements at the initial front corners before the move, or alternatively (possibly) that because the group ended up "L"-shaped, the far corner of the front rank of the section that hadn't yet made it into column counted as a front corner.

FWIW, the +1 PIP is for both front corners not making their full move.  If the leading element makes its full move and counts as at least one of those front corners any debate goes away.  However, if the leading element is from the middle of the initial front rank and neither of the initial far corner elements make it into column there is still this (in my view wrong) argument that you count the initial front corners of the group rather than the final ones.

Tim

[andrew]

Agreed the issue comes down to whether or not you test the corners before or after your move.  IMO it should be before given it will nullify other group move rules (i.e. impetuous elements in a column).  In the original example provided, it would still only cost 1 PIP if the Auxilia are irregular because they are exempt from the irregular ineptness PIP penalty (being light troops in good going), and at least one of the corners has made a full move.
Andrew

[LawrenceG]

Consider three Bows A B and C in a line facing up the page, ordered left to right.

C moves 80p ahead, B moves behind it and A moves behind B, forming a column.

If we consider initial front corners, then this move does not cost an extra PIP.

If we consider final front corners, then this move does cost an extra PIP.

I suggest that considering final front corners gives a more intuitive result AND it is easier to apply on the tabletop.

[andrew]

Hi Lawrence

Understood - although I hadn't considered that sort of Gorgonzola!  I can see knock effects here, in particular by impetuously moving a head of a column away from a column, I can now claim the 2nd element of what was a column is no longer in a column and has a number of options open to him for his spontaneous move.  I view this as equally cheesy.....

Andrew

[landmeister]

I suggest that considering final front corners gives a more intuitive result AND it is easier to apply on the tabletop.

I vote for this

[Tim Child]

I suggest that considering final front corners gives a more intuitive result AND it is easier to apply on the tabletop.

I vote for this

Sadly, DBMM isn't yet a democracy (well, it's one man, one vote, but none of us are that man    ).  However, for what it's worth, final front corners is the way I currently play/umpire the rule.

Tim Child

[Lorenzomele2001]

I have found a similar PIP table on Martins Vexillia page that shows IMO the correct number of PIPs for making a column:
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2008/08/dbmm-for-befuddled-part-6.html

neil fox

I think it would be a good thing to delete the other chart with the wrong values.
Lorenzo

[vexillia]

Well after two and a half months a clarification of sort has emerged.  I posted this - http://tinyurl.com/6bmq7l - on the DBMMlist as part of a discussion of items that needed clarifying.  Chris Handley, who was heavily involved in play testing the rules with Phil Barker, replied (see http://tinyurl.com/9la9pe)

   "as neither of the groups front corners have moved their maximum distance [its covered by the rules]"

So this moves costs 2 PIPs for regular troops and 3 for irregulars.

I think this is going to have a big impact as, judging by the comments, there are a lot of people who don?t pay the extra PIP.

[MikeCampbell]

Or alternatively people might think that the corners of the final group have moved their full distance and continue to not pay the extra PIP.

Why don't you mention that option?

[landmeister]

Or alternatively people might think that the corners of the final group have moved their full distance and continue to not pay the extra PIP.

Why don't you mention that option?

I agree. This option should be considered too.

[andrew]

Then you are back the argument of 'that doesn't seem right' as opposed to 'that's what the rules say' which is hardly a foundation for an enjoyable and agreeable game, which is what this should be about..........