Road in a marsh

[andrew]

Hi

We had a question come up in a game yesterday where there was a road in a marsh.  How far would an element move if that move started within 400p paces of an enemy element, and the move was entirely along the road through the marsh?  Note the distances stated for movement along a road apply only to march moves.

Cheers
Andrew

[Doug M.]

Good question, I would assume a normal tactical move... 

[LawrenceG]

Good question, I would assume a normal tactical move... 

(...taking the marsh into account.)

In other words, roads have no effect if you are not marching.

[william]

  Looks right by rules but wrong in intentions.

William

[andrew]

(...taking the marsh into account.)

In other words, roads have no effect if you are not marching.

This was the interpretation we agreed on purely for the reason that it wasn't a march move.  Furthermore, any combat on the road in the marsh would have resulted in combat penalties so that confirmed it for us.

Cheers
Andrew

[Tim Child]

This question was asked on the DBMMlist some time ago and Phil Barker's reply was to the effect that the "answer was in the title" (i.e. that the extra distance for moving along a road only applies when marching.

This is deliberate - troops only get the road bonus if they are properly marching in column, not spread out in line of combat within their element.  Remember that the width of a road-surface is minute compared to the width of an element - troops in column of march along a road would probably be no more than 4-8 abreast, as opposed to 50 or more in an 80p width element making a tactical move.  It's a classical/medieval track (especially if we're considering a Rd, rather than a PRd), not a motorway.   

Tim Child

[william]

  Yes but how far is a tactical move on a road in difficult or rough going ?

IE for combat we know that it counts as the going it is in for combat but would a Cv element only have a maximum move of 80 paces entirely along a road in a marsh ?

This is what feels wrong about roads. I agree that the extra distance of road moving only applies to march moves and rightly so, but there seems to be no benefit for road movement through terrian for tactical moves.

  This can't be right, please tell me I am wrong.

William

[LawrenceG]

Yes but how far is a tactical move on a road in difficult or rough going ?

IE for combat we know that it counts as the going it is in for combat but would a Cv element only have a maximum move of 80 paces entirely along a road in a marsh ?

This is what feels wrong about roads. I agree that the extra distance of road moving only applies to march moves and rightly so, but there seems to be no benefit for road movement through terrian for tactical moves.

  This can't be right, please tell me I am wrong.

William

Tacical move on a road in difficult or rough going is the tactical move in difficult or rough going.

It takes a bit of getting used to, but IMO it makes sense, as Tim Child pointed out.

A rules lawyer might argue that the "going" of a road is not specified, therefore you can use a "normal" move. I don't think this is the spirit of the rules and it would ony work if the road were a full element in width (otherwise the element would be partially in the bad going). Also there is nothing in the rules to say that the road alters the going of terrain underneath it.

[andrew]

IE for combat we know that it counts as the going it is in for combat but would a Cv element only have a maximum move of 80 paces entirely along a road in a marsh ?

Yes - 80 paces.  I don't have an issue with the logic - in some of the periods we fight these would have been tracks rather than 'roads' as we know them.  The reason the march movement distance differs is because marching is assumed to have occurred during both bounds.

[william]

  This makes it very easy to stop guides stratagems with a well placed Ax(I), and why have roads in a BUA they are not long enough to use, it seems even paved roads do not add to tactical movement.

I agree that it is in the rules and is probably historically correct but it does seem to be catching people.

William

[william]

  Another point that just occoured to me is why is it necessary to tell us that combat on a road counts as terrain the road is in, it implies that the road does count as something other for all movement.

Would it not have been better to state that roads aid march moves only and nothing else.

  Seriously confusing.

William

[Tim Child]

The rules tell us that combat counts as the terrain the road is in so that it is clear and players don't start arguing that the their Cv don't have to count the -2 for the Wd because they're on the Rd.   

Regarding the earlier question, BUAs have Rd in them because (for a big BUA) it aids in getting from one side of the town to the other, and it provides some "free" Rd for the players to link to with external Rds.

Even PRd were not 80p wide in classical times.  We aren't dealing with 8 lanes of the M25, but something wide enough to get 1 cart going in each direction (at best...).

Tim Child

[william]

The rules tell us that combat counts as the terrain the road is in so that it is clear and players don't start arguing that the their Cv don't have to count the -2 for the Wd because they're on the Rd.  

Regarding the earlier question, BUAs have Rd in them because (for a big BUA) it aids in getting from one side of the town to the other, and it provides some "free" Rd for the players to link to with external Rds.

Even PRd were not 80p wide in classical times.  We aren't dealing with 8 lanes of the M25, but something wide enough to get 1 cart going in each direction (at best...).

Tim Child

Hello Tim,
       Did not take you long to get back today.

       I am as dense as two planks sometimes but still have been thinking about this a bit, especially terrian and train. Train can move into terrian ( or start in terrian ? ) using a road for marching but if it ends in tactical distance of enemy it is then stuck there ?

       Troops using a road in a BUA can move quicker when there are no non skirmishing enemy within 400 paces, then have to move slower when the enemy is closer but not in the BUA?

      And I am sorry to repeat the first question above but can train ( being outside 400 paces of enemy ) deploy on a road in difficult going EG Art(S) in a bua or wood, Bg(I) on a DH, or even if not train Bd on CH but on a road?

       I do not doubt you just want to know.

      William

[Tim Child]

Yes, I was nice and quick thanks to remarkably clear traffic conditions on the 20th-century 6-lane M42 and M40.

Ooh, you do enjoy the difficult questions!   

The rules are quite clear (IMO) about the movement allowance on Rds only being for march moves.  That means that train (who don't have a tactical move allowance in DGo) slow to what is effectively a halt in the presence of enemy elements.  Think of this as your baggage/artillery train needing some guards sufficient to see off enemy troops.  Alternatively, don't put your train in a Rd in DGo if there are enemy nearby!!

Troops using the Rd in the BUA move quicker when marching, just as any troops move quicker when marching.  Presence of nearby enemy restricts that.  If you want some sort of ad hoc rationalisation to try to justify what is really a rules-artifact, perhaps the local civilians are wailing and renting their robes, pleading with your troops and their commanders to save them from the vile enemy hordes appearing just outside the walls and this is slowing down the military's response-times.   

As for the deployment issues, p.22 "No element can be deployed in terrain it could not enter."  Since these troops could have entered the terrain on the Rd, they can be deployed there.  Easy really.    

Tim

[william]

  Tim you are a prince among men,

Thanks

William