Pursuing & lining up

[foxgom]

Hi

see attachment.

Diagram A
8 pikes 2 deep attack straight ahead and contact the corner of a column of four pikes.
The column decides not to line up, wins the combat and follows up.

Diagram B.
The column is now fighting a different element, which in turn also does not wish to line up.
The next combat is a draw.

Diagram C.
Now the recoiled blue pikes advance again to make contact and again, nobody wants to line up.
Which elements fight?!
The column is now touching two blue elements.

neil fox

[landmeister]

I think that the only reasonable soution is compelling the four deep column to line up. I know they can choose no to line up, but otherwise this is an illegal contact! 

[andrew]

Page 33 under 'Front Edge contact' : "lf a group contacts part of a single enemy element's front edge or an element or column entering a gap contacts an enemy element or group, the enemy must conform instead."

So in diagram C the 4 deep column must now conform given you are a column entering a gap contacting an enemy group.

Andrew

[landmeister]

Page 33 under 'Front Edge contact' : "lf a group contacts part of a single enemy element's front edge or an element or column entering a gap contacts an enemy element or group, the enemy must conform instead."

So in diagram C the 4 deep column must now conform given you are a column entering a gap contacting an enemy group.

Andrew

Sorry, Andrew. Wouldn't you mean that the two deep block must line up (they are the enemy inm this case)? 

[foxgom]

Hi

In this example all attackers have only contacted enemy corners and not edges, so lining up is not compulsory.

(Page 34, middle of page, "Corner")

neil

[andrew]

Hi Neil

Understood but are you overlooking the earlier rule?  If I am understanding this correctly per the diagrams, the 3rd move involves the 2 deep block of Pike moving forward and contacting the 4 deep block of Pike.  In this case the 2 deep block of Pike is a column entering a gap and has contacted an enemy element or group.  So under the rule I quoted, the 4 deep block must conform.  Note in the rule quoted that the first half of the sentence mentions front edge whereas the second half (which is the part that is relevant) only mentions 'contact'.  I presume this is not being applied given a corner is not part of an edge?  Whilst the actual rule is under the heading 'front edge' the 2nd bullet point only mentions contact.

If you don't want to apply this rule (because of the corner vs edge thing), then the rule at the top of the page could kick in, in that friendly elements are preventing the 2 deep block of Pike from lining up so the move is cancelled.  Alternatively, if I were the owner of the Blue Pike, and my opponent was going to be bloody-minded about not conforming then I would insist the 4 deep Pike block had to fight both of the 2 deep blocks of Pike given it should be fighting against at least one overlap.

Andrew

[LawrenceG]

Hi

see attachment.

Diagram A
8 pikes 2 deep attack straight ahead and contact the corner of a column of four pikes.
The column decides not to line up, wins the combat and follows up.

Diagram B.
The column is now fighting a different element, which in turn also does not wish to line up.
The next combat is a draw.

Diagram C.
Now the recoiled blue pikes advance again to make contact and again, nobody wants to line up.
Which elements fight?!
The column is now touching two blue elements.

neil fox

I can't see any reason why the column of 4 should not fight two close combats, one against each opponent.

[MikeCampbell]

I can - even if it is not stated anywhere in the rules explicitly it is IMO clearly against he spirit of the rules, which is that combat is between single elements.

IMO the pursuit is fine as is the combat at B - at C the 2 deep pike that have moved into contact with hte corner of the 4 deep pike are now best treated as an overlap on those.

the simplest solution would be to require a follow-up to be in pursuit of the recoiling elements - and I suspect that the current wording to require pursuit straight ahead in this circumstance is an oversight.

If umpiring that's how I'd rule.

[LawrenceG]

I can - even if it is not stated anywhere in the rules explicitly it is IMO clearly against he spirit of the rules, which is that combat is between single elements.

IMO the rules do permit a single element to fight twice (page 35, penultimate paragraph) , but the various constraints on how to do combat ensure that in nearly all cases, but not in all cases. This rather unusual corner contact situation is a case that was probably not anticipated.

[Tim Child]

Hi Neil

Understood but are you overlooking the earlier rule?  If I am understanding this correctly per the diagrams, the 3rd move involves the 2 deep block of Pike moving forward and contacting the 4 deep block of Pike.  In this case the 2 deep block of Pike is a column entering a gap and has contacted an enemy element or group.  So under the rule I quoted, the 4 deep block must conform.  Note in the rule quoted that the first half of the sentence mentions front edge whereas the second half (which is the part that is relevant) only mentions 'contact'.  I presume this is not being applied given a corner is not part of an edge?  Whilst the actual rule is under the heading 'front edge' the 2nd bullet point only mentions contact.

If you don't want to apply this rule (because of the corner vs edge thing), then the rule at the top of the page could kick in, in that friendly elements are preventing the 2 deep block of Pike from lining up so the move is cancelled.  Alternatively, if I were the owner of the Blue Pike, and my opponent was going to be bloody-minded about not conforming then I would insist the 4 deep Pike block had to fight both of the 2 deep blocks of Pike given it should be fighting against at least one overlap.

Andrew

FWIW, I agree with Andrew's interp.  The side-headings in the first section of p.33 are about how the elements end up, not about how they actually make contact.  So, when in diagram 3 the 2-deep blues advance again they hit the corner of the 4-deep Pk and "an element or column entering a gap contacts an enemy element or group, the enemy must conform instead".  Ergo, the 4-deep then conform to the moving blues (thus ending up with the blues having moved their front edge into contact with the enemy's front edge), and suffer a double-overlap in the ensuing combat.

N.b. however, that the preceding section start's "An element initiates close combat with enemy by moving its front edge into contact with the enemy's: [etc.]"  I think that it would probably be open to the blue player to say that he only intends to move his front edge into contact with the enemy's corner, and fight the fight that way instead if he prefers (suppose that for some reason neither player wants the 4-deep Pk to conform).  The 4-deep would then fight the fight counting one overlap on its outer corner (which is the outer corner of a column, by the way??     ).

Not at all sure about the idea of the 4-deep Pk fighting both 2-deep sets of enemy if so, however, which just "feels wrong"!

Tim Child

[LawrenceG]

I had thought that the "column entering a gap" rule only applied if you contacted the enemy front edge. Hwever, on closer inspection of the wording , it would appear that you can contact any part of the enemy group, so I think it does apply to this example.

On the other hand, if the next file of blue pike were not there, the column would not be entering a gap and the original question still arises.

[MikeCampbell]

I can - even if it is not stated anywhere in the rules explicitly it is IMO clearly against he spirit of the rules, which is that combat is between single elements.

IMO the rules do permit a single element to fight twice (page 35, penultimate paragraph) , .

True - as specific exceptions...none of which is pike

but the various constraints on how to do combat ensure that in nearly all cases, but not in all cases. This rather unusual corner contact situation is a case that was probably not anticipated.

IMO the follow-up rules are probably where the problem occurs - elements should probably follow up the recoil, not directly ahead.