Pursuing contact in the rear.

[william]

  I am very sorry but I will be asking a good few questions over the next few weeks, I have volunteered to be a playing umpire in our local small DBMM competition. Even though I do get somethings wrong IMHO I am probably have the best understanding of the rules in our area ( club ), I am also hoping not to feature well in the comp.

My first question concerns rear combats. If an element A contacts a column (B,C, D ) in the rear, the rear most element ( B ) does not turn to face and fights on a minus 2 ( fairly straight forward ). Element A wins against B automatically killing it and ( if of an allowed troop type ) follows up into the rear of the next enemy element ( C ). In C's turn can it turn to face A as a move or does it have to survive the combat to be allowed to to turn to face A.

Secondly does an element contacted in the rear have a zone of death to it's front, EG if A was a Knight and the column were Bows if B dies does C ( as the element next in column ) also die.

          Sad if I am nearly the best in my area in understanding the rules,

               William

[andrew]

Hi William

My interpretation is that you only turn to face if hit only in the flank (subject to other rules).  Page 35 also states elements hit in the rear do not turn to face, and gives the examples of when they can turn to face (i.e. as a result of a march move, or winning/drawing the combat).

I believe your second question was raised some time ago based on the original version of the rules and problems with the wording.  However, a close reading of the rules shows it to be pretty clear: "all friendly elements with any part directly behind are also destroyed if their nearest part is less than the destroyed element's base depth from its original rear edge".  So the short answer is only one element dies.

In any case, if you are the umpire you can make a ruling and the others have to abide!

Andrew

[MikeCampbell]

I had this happen on the weekend and no, the new contact does not turn to face.

what's more since the next turn is your opponent's, he gets to move elements into the combat - in my case he moved an element into the rear of my element, and another into overlap on the flank.

so now there weer 2 elements contacted in the rear - mine and his original one.

We fought the original combat with all the other elements counting as tactical factors.

[LawrenceG]

I had this happen on the weekend and no, the new contact does not turn to face.

what's more since the next turn is your opponent's, he gets to move elements into the combat - in my case he moved an element into the rear of my element, and another into overlap on the flank.

so now there weer 2 elements contacted in the rear - mine and his original one.

We fought the original combat with all the other elements counting as tactical factors.

My reading is that the new contact does not turn to face automatically in the next combat phase.

However, you could pay PIPS to make it turn in the movement phase, or, indeed, make any PIP-costing or spontaneous move that is permitted in a TZ. ("Turn 180 degrees" or "move as far as possible straight forward" strike me as the most likely possibilities). 

[william]

My reading is that the new contact does not turn to face automatically in the next combat phase.

However, you could pay PIPS to make it turn in the movement phase, or, indeed, make any PIP-costing or spontaneous move that is permitted in a TZ. ("Turn 180 degrees" or "move as far as possible straight forward" strike me as the most likely possibilities). 

Thats really my question, is there a prohibition about moving in combat to allow to turn to face an opponent to the rear ?

William

[MikeCampbell]

no you can't - it's quite clear - "An element ....[contacted on its rear edge by an enemy front edge]....does not turn before combat,....." etc on page 35, para 5.

[william]

  Thanks Mike, you appear to be right as ever. Have been playing it that way but it was niggling at me.

Just one other side to this, can troops break of from contact as a move ( not a combat outcome ) ?

William

[LawrenceG]

Thanks Mike, you appear to be right as ever. Have been playing it that way but it was niggling at me.

Just one other side to this, can troops break of from contact as a move ( not a combat outcome ) ?

William

There is no rule specifically prohibiting this.

In practice, the  restrictions on movement in a TZ prevent it in most cases (but not for a combat against your rear edge: you can break off by going straight ahead).

[Tim Child]

no you can't - it's quite clear - "An element ....[contacted on its rear edge by an enemy front edge]....does not turn before combat,....." etc on page 35, para 5.

I agree that it says "unless by a march", and not "unless by a march or outcome move", but I wonder whether it was in fact what Phil intended?  The rule specifically seems to be talking about "Turning To Face", i.e. the automatic turn that elements make when struck in the flank (or that they used to make when struck in the rear in DBM).  I think that the intention was that if an element was struck in the rear (except by a march) it didn't turn immediately, so that the game mechanism of dying if you have enemy in contact with your rear applied.

I'm not at all sure that the intention was to outlaw a PIP-costed 180 degree turn in the element's own bound - the troops do, after all, have the luxury of time to turn around while their mates behind are chopped down in the enemy bound.  The player has to pay PIPs as a way of measuring whether the commanders on the ground had the nous about them to get their boys organised.

One for further discussion on the DBMMlist, maybe?  Anything to get away from Helots...

Tim Child

[MikeCampbell]

IMO Phil has little or no sympathy for getting badly outrmanouvred - if you are likely to get hit in the rear then you'd better turn around while you still can....

so whether it was intended or not IMO he's likely to be quite happy with it!