And another one about a strange contact

[landmeister]

Raised from my last game. Please, look at diagram 1 attached. All elements are of Cv. Group A-B has contacted the enemy group 1-2 in a front corner. My opponent chose to remain stationary. Then my second group C-D moves forward and contact the flank of 1. You can say the possible final position of element C in a dotted rectangle. Element D cannot use the EMTLU due to distance.

Element can't line up to 1 due to:

1. Presence of B. Friendly elements cannot be moved when acting as an obstacle. The whole flank cannot be so contacted.
2. Element D is a ne obstacle in its actual situation. A bit of C would ends over D.

Is this one of those rare situations in which the move "is cancelled" as per page 33, 1st para.?

Thank you.

[william]

  This is interesting, I know 1 can chose not to line up if contacted on an outside front corner but can it chose not to line up if contacted on a flank edge rather than the front outside corner.

I am a small bit confused about the conforming in these situations myself, to start with can C use a EMTLU on some of the flank without forcing D to move as well, D can ( as I see it ) use an EMTLU because it is not in a TZ and neither can has it contacted any thing, can B use EMTLU to line up in contact with 1 yes I think it can because A can also use an EMTLU as it is in 1 TZ ( I do think it will not be able to form an overlap rather conform parallell with B and behind it. Then C would have the ability to line up in flank contact with 1 without moving D at all.

Also I think you maybe able to do this after your opponent has chosen not to conform as it it still in the movement phase of the bound.

I can always be relied upon to make things even more confusing and if I understood how to do a diagram on this I would.

  William

[william]

 

  can B use EMTLU to line up in contact with 1 yes I think it can because A can also use an EMTLU as it is in 1 TZ ( I do think it will not be able to form an overlap rather conform parallell with B and behind it.


  William

Would you be able to EMTLU like this with A and B if they were chariot or SB wedges, maybe not as A may in the process of lining up slip out of the TZ. If this would be the case can B still line up in contact with 1's front edge if A will not move ?

Yes could confuse a judge.

 :-[William

[LawrenceG]

Raised from my last game. Please, look at diagram 1 attached. All elements are of Cv. Group A-B has contacted the enemy group 1-2 in a front corner. My opponent chose to remain stationary. Then my second group C-D moves forward and contact the flank of 1. You can say the possible final position of element C in a dotted rectangle. Element D cannot use the EMTLU due to distance.

Element can't line up to 1 due to:

1. Presence of B. Friendly elements cannot be moved when acting as an obstacle. The whole flank cannot be so contacted.
2. Element D is a ne obstacle in its actual situation. A bit of C would ends over D.

Is this one of those rare situations in which the move "is cancelled" as per page 33, 1st para.?

Thank you.

Page 33 para 1 only talks about cancelling a move if the blocking element is your own and nt in close combat or giving rear support. Unfortunately the rules give us no instructions on what to do if the blocker is in close combat or rear support, but it is a reasonable assumption that they would cause the move to be cancelled too.

In this case B is in close combat and blocks the flank contact, so the move is cancelled.

In the absence of B, D would still block the contact, but I think it could use the EMTLU option (d) to move behind C.

[MikeCampbell]

I was initially a bit confused by this - but basicaly the answer is in your own hands - if you conform with A & B to start with then you have no problem - by trying to be sneaky/cunning you have shot yourself in the foot - or at least prevented geting a shot at the otehr guy's foot (ie you can't lap around 1 so you miss out on an aopportunity to QK him)

[andrew]

I agree with Mike.  Given C cannot make a legal contact isn't that an illegal move to simply leave them where they are?  The flank contact rules state how you must end up.  In this scenario elements A & B cannot use EMTLU to make a corner to corner contact with Element 1 given the extra movement will exceed 80 paces.

For 2 PIPs A (or B) goes into the front of 1 legally using EMTLU and B (or C) goes into the flank also using EMTLU if necessary.  Problem solved?  Or C and D end lined up on the front of A & B.

Lawrence - to move element D using EMTLU paragraph d per your post, isn't the movement cancelled if the blocking element is a friendly element?  I thought paragraph d only applied to moving blocking enemy elements.  Happy to be corrected of I am wrong......

Andrew

[landmeister]

I am a small bit confused about the conforming in these situations myself, to start with can C use a EMTLU on some of the flank without forcing D to move as well, D can ( as I see it ) use an EMTLU because it is not in a TZ and neither can has it contacted any thing, can B use EMTLU to line up in contact with 1 yes I think it can because A can also use an EMTLU as it is in 1 TZ ( I do think it will not be able to form an overlap rather conform parallell with B and behind it. Then C would have the ability to line up in flank contact with 1 without moving D at all.

I offered my opponent to line up 1 against B in order to avoid all this mess, but he refused!  The question is, what must be done in this specific case?

[landmeister]

In this case B is in close combat and blocks the flank contact, so the move is cancelled.

I agree.

In the absence of B, D would still block the contact, but I think it could use the EMTLU option (d) to move behind C.

I disagree. D is not being TZed, so cannot use the EMTLU. 

[landmeister]

I was initially a bit confused by this - but basicaly the answer is in your own hands - if you conform with A & B to start with then you have no problem - by trying to be sneaky/cunning you have shot yourself in the foot - or at least prevented geting a shot at the otehr guy's foot (ie you can't lap around 1 so you miss out on an aopportunity to QK him)

This is what I suspected, I'm afraid. 

[landmeister]

Lawrence - to move element D using EMTLU paragraph d per your post, isn't the movement cancelled if the blocking element is a friendly element?  I thought paragraph d only applied to moving blocking enemy elements.  Happy to be corrected of I am wrong......

Interesting. I wasalmost sure that the rule on page 33 about geometric ploys avoiding contact would erradicate situations like this. I was wrong.  I'm not telling the rule is wrong. On the contrary. What I want to say is that we must now pay attention on how we contact. Not all contacts are possible.

[LawrenceG]

Lawrence - to move element D using EMTLU paragraph d per your post, isn't the movement cancelled if the blocking element is a friendly element?  I thought paragraph d only applied to moving blocking enemy elements.  Happy to be corrected of I am wrong......

Andrew

Well, I'm not at all certain about this one. Group CD is contacting enemy, which entitles it to EMTLU, but it may well be that only enemy blocking elements can be moved.

In any case you can still move a blocked element, so you could move C behind D and D into the flank of the second enemy element, assuming D can reach.

You could also move A behind B as A is blocked by B from contacting the enemy front edge. Then B uses EMTLU to make the front edge contact, leaving the enemy flank unblocked.

I don't think that moving in such a way as to block yourself would be a "geometrical ploy to avoid contact". It's just bad management of your moves.

[william]

Well, I'm not at all certain about this one. Group CD is contacting enemy, which entitles it to EMTLU, but it may well be that only enemy blocking elements can be moved.

In any case you can still move a blocked element, so you could move C behind D and D into the flank of the second enemy element, assuming D can reach.

  Glad I am still getting things wrong, yes ignoring the A B contact for a moment D can use an EMTLU but only to line up with the enemy not to contact it as D has not contacted anybody in the move.

Still learning

William

[william]

I agree with Mike.  Given C cannot make a legal contact isn't that an illegal move to simply leave them where they are?  The flank contact rules state how you must end up.  In this scenario elements A & B cannot use EMTLU to make a corner to corner contact with Element 1 given the extra movement will exceed 80 paces.

Andrew

If A falls behind B as B is contacting 1 in two EMTLUs how is this more than 80 paces?

or can shorten group frontage to similary move a blocking ( blocking the contact ) so that A falls behind B ( not necessarily that that A and B will still be a group but parallel )?

William

[william]

  Ok Landmeister, this is Willies silly solution,

You make the moves exactly as shown offering your opponant to voluntarily to line up with you.

If he/she choses (he/she does not have to line up till after both moves are made) ( EMTLU can happen any time in either player's movement phase) to line up after your two moves then C will no longer be in contact or in a TZ so will no longer have the option to EMTLU.
   
    This will leave 1 in front edge contact with B, A overlaping.

If he/she choses not to line up after your two moves I think ( and this is where it might get tricky ) you can still EMTLU with all your 4 elements as the move phase has not finished.

   IMHO the group A-B can EMTLU first, B contacting front corner to front corner contact with 1, A can fall behind B, will line up parallel with B but not in a group with B ( if to line up means just to be Parallel ) or in a group with B ( this would be a stretch as one can not form line to column while initiating combat, and I do not think it is necessary to 'LINE UP' ).

  This or these first two EMTLUs do not effect C ( interpenetrate or push in any way ).

   As it is still in the Movement phase you can then EMTLU C-D, C as it has contacted 1 will slide into contact with the flank of 1 ( front corner to front corner ), I do not think this will be blocked by D who could as part of a contacting group do it's own EMTLU to pivot on it's front corner ( the one touching C ) just enough to line up parallel with 1 and 2 but not contact as it has not contacted any element.

But and this is a big BUT ( imagine a ten foot high but ), I could be speaking out of my own backside and everything I have said could be completly wrong and an early cold shower could be called upon.

If I was able to draw those diagrams you do it might make my view ( right or wrong ) easier to understand.

I apoligise if I have confused the issue even more than I already have,

William

[william]

   As it is still in the Movement phase you can then EMTLU C-D, C as it has contacted 1 will slide into contact with the flank of 1 ( front corner to front corner ), I do not think this will be blocked by D who could as part of a contacting group do it's own EMTLU to pivot on it's front corner ( the one touching C ) just enough to line up parallel with 1 and 2 but not contact as it has not contacted any element.

Ok, ok I am arguing with myself ( who better ).

Everything else satys the same but D does not make an EMTLU as an individual element because it is not in a TZ or contacting an enemy but if you make your EMTLU's in the sequence I have tried to state then D does ( probably not ) have to move in order for C to flank contact 1.

It is worse things are improving.

William