Can I kill three pikes with one die roll?

[foxgom]

Hi

Blades are fighting pikes.
The pikes are four deep.
One blade fights them frontally.
A second blade hits them in the flank.

The second Bd lines up with the second pike, so it is fully contacting Pikes 2 &3 in the flank.

Pk 2 & 3 do not turn to face (P 35 turning to face, first para).
 
The flank Bd counts as a flank contact on the first pike. (P35 Turning to face, 3rd para).

The Bd roll better and Pike 1 dies, because it is contacted in the flank (P38 ..."more than half" next sentence).


Do pikes 2 AND 3 die?  (P40 Detroyed elements second last bullet).

neil

[william]

  Hi Neil,

At first glance I said No you can not kill the three pike, on reading it slowly I still think no.

The zone of death for rear ranks only applies within the base depth of the front element ( no do not want to start the floating zone of death debate again ).

Feel free to ignore the rest.

All this only applies of course if the move by the flanking element is legal. For Flank edge contact ' It must end in mutual front corner to front corner contact if possible. If it is not, the full flank edge must be contacted.' Whether this has to be to the front Pk it does not say, it is possibly meant to, also does the blade flanking this way give the -1 as the front element is not flanked ?

The other question would be as Pk2 ( the second rank pike ) does not turn to face would it be possible for the third rank to turn to face, ( either the flanking Blade sliding to be in front corner contact with pk3 or pk3  { and possibly Pk 4 } pushing the the flanking blade  back and Pk3 ( or Pk4 ) ending with it's back to Pk2.

  If your going to kill 3 Pks in one go do it with Wb and a ZOD behind a single Pk and 2 ( or even 3 or 4 ) Pk behind at 90 degrees to the first.

William

[MikeCampbell]

Only 2 die - the flanking thing requires the entire flank edge to be contacted - and IIRC even in 15mm the 3rd pike does not have its entire edge contacted - the front 2 ranks are 30mm deep, the blade is 40mm wide, the 3rd rank is 15mm deep - so the 3rd pike only has 10mm of its 15mm depth in contact with the blade.

As to whether you have to contact the front element on it's flank corner to corner, etc - only hte front element is actually in close combat hence the provisions of Pg 33 apply to contacting it. How it contacts the others is irrelevant provided there is legal contact on the front element - there being nothing to require anything else.

[william]

 

As to whether you have to contact the front element on it's flank corner to corner, etc - only hte front element is actually in close combat hence the provisions of Pg 33 apply to contacting it. How it contacts the others is irrelevant provided there is legal contact on the front element - there being nothing to require anything else.

Sorry Mike, they way I read Neil's question is that the flanking blade did not contact the front pike at all, but has contacted the second ( hopefully front corner to front corner ), therefore the third Pike would have the ' flanking' blade in front edge contact with it's entire flank.

William

[MikeCampbell]

Good point - I completely missed that - but IMO it's stil only the 2nd element that dies.

This is another case of hte argument about whether a 3rd rank of Ps diies if it's supporting 2 ranks of Bd and hte font Bd is killed - does the 2nd rank count as beign killed in close combat, therefore have it's own ZOD - thus killing the 3rd rank...and does the 3rd rank then count as being killed in close combat thus potentially killing the 4th rank (if it's Psiloi for example it doesn't need to have enemy in contact with its flank).

AFAIK the intention is that close combat can only kill 2 elements - that fighting and potentially one more behind it.

Note that lining up on the 2nd element means Pike 1 does NOT count as having an enemy in contact with its flank - para 3 under "Turning to face" - the 1st element is not contacted in the flank - this whole para seems a bit redundant IMO.

[william]

  Hate to say this Mike but I am totally agreeing with you.

Bother thats not good.

William

[william]

  Just to hyjack this question a little.

If the group of Pk was spear and the blades contacted as they did, Sp1 would be in combat to it's front and would recieve rear support from Sp2, Sp1 would also counts as being flanked  and receives the minus 1, Sp3 has also been legally countacted ( all of it's flank is covered ) so does it attempt to turn to face ?

If the results are a stand will Sp2 turn to face automatically in the next bound as it does no provide rear support against Bd in own bound?

If you then take out the Blades an replace with Ax, will Sp2 now turn to face because it does not provide rear support in opponents bound against Ax ( but will in next bound ) ?

William

[LawrenceG]

Just to hyjack this question a little.

If the group of Pk was spear and the blades contacted as they did, Sp1 would be in combat to it's front and would recieve rear support from Sp2, Sp1 would also counts as being flanked  and receives the minus 1, Sp3 has also been legally countacted ( all of it's flank is covered ) so does it attempt to turn to face ?

If the results are a stand will Sp2 turn to face automatically in the next bound as it does no provide rear support against Bd in own bound?

If you then take out the Blades an replace with Ax, will Sp2 now turn to face because it does not provide rear support in opponents bound against Ax ( but will in next bound ) ?

William

If an element is giving rear support it does not turn to face.
If the front element of several contacted in flank does not turn, then none of them does.
If, in a later bound, the flanked element is not giving rear support, then yes it does turn (according to the rules as written)

[william]

  Something like this question came up in a recent game, posting it here as it is very similar and might save question space.

  Now you will all have to forgive me as no one has yet taught me how to draw and attach all those smart diagrams you all seem to do.

In a pratice game three knights attack a column of Lh (head on), the Knights are l, J and K the light horse are ^ or< dependant on their facing.

Starting position          l J K
                                 ^
                                 ^
                                 ^

the attack goes in as thus

                                 J
                                ^K
                               -^
                                ^

after any shooting the rear to ranks turn to face l knight

                                  J
                                 ^K
                                -<<

Now of course J fights first ( and just has to beat it's opponant to kill it ) J then follows up

                                JK
                              -<<
and now forms a flank contact on the second LH, the third LH in this position has 10mm of the front edge of J and 20mm of the front edge K on it's flank, the second light horse loses and dies, does the third one die as well?

  William                       

[landmeister]

Not sure, but it seems so, IMHO.

[andrew]

Now you will all have to forgive me as no one has yet taught me how to draw and attach all those smart diagrams you all seem to do.

Hi William

I either use MS Excel or MS Paint and then crop the image.  Historically I would then load the image onto a free image hosting website.  However, I have found that often the images disappear after a few months with the free image hosting sites, so I now just load the images into a defunct folder behind webpage.  If you have an image you want to load then send me your picture, I will load it and send back a link for you to quote in your message.  The same offer is open to anyone else participating here.

Andrew

[william]

Now you will all have to forgive me as no one has yet taught me how to draw and attach all those smart diagrams you all seem to do.

Hi William

I either use MS Excel or MS Paint and then crop the image.  Historically I would then load the image onto a free image hosting website.  However, I have found that often the images disappear after a few months with the free image hosting sites, so I now just load the images into a defunct folder behind webpage.  If you have an image you want to load then send me your picture, I will load it and send back a link for you to quote in your message.  The same offer is open to anyone else participating here.

Andrew

Thanks alot Andrew, will practice with Paint or drawing.

William

[william]

Not sure, but it seems so, IMHO.

  I new you would not let me down Landmiester.

At first glance ( and in the freindly game ) I would have thought you correct,

The zone of death rule states

'An enemy element's front edge is in contact with all of their side edge.'

seems simple enough second rank dead move on, but in my example the second rank's flank had 2 enemy elements contacting it, this ( being very pedantic ) is not 'An element'.

Personally I think (but could be wrong) that the intent would be for the second element to die but this may need tightening up a little.

William  ( ok very, very, very cheesey once more )