Author Topic: Broken Spears at Ladywood  (Read 6002 times)

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LawrenceG

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Broken Spears at Ladywood
« on: March 01, 2009, 02:18:23 PM »
Having been gven the opportunity to play at the Ladywood "not a competition" event, I decided to try out the "Spears are broken in DBMM" theory using a later hoplite Greek Athenian army. I had used hoplite armies in a couple of friendly club games before, in near-historical matchups, and had found that in practice they are not as bad as they look on paper. However, in an open event including many seasoned competition players with finely honed army designs, things might be different.

My list was:

CinC Irr Sp(O)
17 Irr Sp(O)
3 Reg Cv(O)
3 Reg Ps(S)
5 Reg Ps(O)
2 Irr Bg(O)
32 ME

Sub 1 Reg Cv(O)
14 Irr Sp(O)
3 Reg Cv(O)
4 Reg Ps(S)
5 Reg Ps(O)
5 Reg Ax(O)
2 Irr Bg(O)
32 ME

Sub 2 Reg Cv(O)
16 Irr Sp(O)
3 Reg Cv(O)
8 Reg Ps(O)
1 Irr Ps(I)
2 Irr Bg(I)
31.5  ME

The first game was against Graham Edwards with Khitan Liao

I thought I was probably doomed, as the regular commands would dance around me and concentrate Cv(S) and/or knights against any vulnerable spot. However, I thought if I invade in summer there would be a chance of getting a night attack in and closing him down before he could manoeuvre. 2 drawn aggression rolls later, I found myself invading in winter. At least I was able to place two steep hills in fairly useful places on an otherwise open table. My opponent placed a gentle hill in the light troops zone on the centreline to my right.

Then we rolled deployment dice and found deployment would be complete during dawn and after three bounds my army would be dazzled by the rising sun for a further 6 bounds. 
I decided to counter this disadvantage by deploying two commands facing inwards more than 45 degrees away from into the sun. Although this meant my flanks were pointing towards the enemy, they were to some extent protected by the two steep hills. The CinC was deployed facing forward on a flank where, deploying second, I could see that there would be no immediate threats.

The Khitan army had a mongol ally command of 16 Irr LH(S) plus a Cv general opposite my sub 1 on my left, a centre of 8 Cv(S) and 4 LH(F), and a command of 8 Cv(O), 3 Cv(S) and 4 LH(F) mainly opposite my sub 2 with the LH ready to occupy the gentle hill . There was also a scattering of Hd(I) and a regular baggage command.



In the opening stages,  the ally came forward to attack my left and the Cv(S) from the centre came behind the ally to support the attack. The LH on the other flank occupied the gentle hill. I had poor pips and had to advance Sub 2?s hoplites. Sub 1 marched a column of light foot towards the safety of a steep hill. The Mongols came in against my light troops but didn?t kill many initially. I had an opportunity to flank a Mongol LH with a Ps and hit the front with my general. I killed the LH, but had underestimated the move range of the Cv(S) behind, which attacked my general. Luckily I won the combat and was able to pull back. However this general spent the rest of the game trying to avoid being caught by Cv(S). While more light troops fell to the Mongol attacks, the hoplites with a few cavalry in support proved more than a match for them. By the end of the game five were spent and five destroyed. Unfortunately I needed to kill 6 to dishearten the command or kill and spend 11 to break it.

On the other flank my CinC advanced his hoplite column with a view to coming round behind the enemy Cv(O) block, while the psiloi and cavalry closed in on the LH (F) on the hill. They decided to stand and fight, but were outflanked and on the shady side of the hill, so my attacks were not affected by dazzle. Before long they were all destroyed. By this time the hoplite column had advanced into contact with a Hd(I) which refused to die until the end of the game.



In the centre, both of us were wary about coming forwards, but eventually we both did, resulting in a confused multi-directional melee.



The enemy cavalry had the better of this, but not enough to do significant damage by the time limit.  My opponent was using a borrowed, unfamiliar army  and we both still need to look quite a lot up in the rules, so we didn?t get many bounds in. At the end the Mongols were on their last legs, my left command was severely outflanked by Cv(S), but the Khitan?s Cv(O) command had taken a lot of damage and I had 4 cavalry in the centre with a big emty space in front of them.




LawrenceG

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood - game 2
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 02:24:41 PM »
My second game was against Neil Sutherland with Koguryo Korean. With Kn(X) counting (S) against my spears and cavalry, pikes and potentially quite a few blades, this looked like another bad matchup for me.

Again I invaded but there were no significant weather or time issues. Again I placed two steep hills,  one of which fell quite usefully for me slightly right of table centre. Neil minimised his terrain. He deployed first with a LH/Kn(X) ally, then a pike (mostly (F) )command to my left of the steep hill, 2 Bd(F) and a number of Bw(I) ready to go up it. To the right were a few Bw(O), two more Bd(F) and a load of Kn(X) and LH(S) under the CinC. Behind them was a reserve of 4 Kn(X) including a general.

I refused my right, deploying the CinC?s hoplites back from near the steep hill to the table edge. One "skirmishing" hoplite element was deployed wide out to the right. Psiloi were ready to take the steep hill. The two subgenerals lined up to charge the ally and the gap next to the pikemen, with psiloi to fight the front of the pike block. At factor 2 vs 3(F) they might do it some damage and hopefully would not get spent too quickly.



On his first turn, Neil tried to get the allied LH(S) down my left flank, while the inferior bowmen started going up the steep hill. The knight commands both headed towards my CinC. 



On my first turn I was able to close down the LH outflanking threat and started my inexorable advance in the centre. The skirmishing hoplite held out for three bounds before succumbing to LH(S), but this did slow down the knights advance for a while.

The ally then kept getting a 1 for PIPs so I was able to put in a lot of good attacks with quick-kills. However, LH(S) are made of stern stuff and it was me that was losing elements. Eventually weight of numbers told and I started killing the LH.

Meanwhile, Neil had decided that the pikes were too vulnerable and that he should get them to safety. Some did a 180 turn and moved towards the base line. Others turned 90 into column and moved across to behind the two knight commands. However,  the front row of Pk(F) were too far forward to turn into column and escape because the steep hill and Bw(I) blocked them. Therefore they had to stay put and accept their punishment. The Bw(I) and Bd(F) came up the hill to fight my Psiloi, who were also being raked by flank shots from Bw(O) on the plain. Both of us took casualties.



Then the hoplites caught up with a Kn(X) from the ally command and killed it, which pushed it over its break point.

Next bound Neil misjudged a move with the general of the pike command and left it within range of the hoplites charge. He survived a bound or two of combat flanked, but in the end went down, taking the command. This left me needing only 2 ME more to take the army, but we ran out of time.  Most of the Kn(X) never fought as once they were within charge range, they were too worried about losing the extra 2 ME for the army. After the game Neil said he should have moved his reserve Reg Kn(X) command across to support the pikes and I think he was right. With the high pip dice of 4 they would easily have got there in time to do some good.


So I had two interesting games and had the better of both of them. Yet again the spears in practice turned out fine. I think this is because it is not just the combat factors and outcomes of the spears that matter, it is the size, composition and tactics of the whole army that count. I suppose the next step is to try them in a full-blown competition.




LawrenceG

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 02:36:00 PM »
Many thanks to Gordon for organising the event and to Norman and the Guildford contingent for squeezing me into their car.

Tim Child

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2009, 11:07:03 PM »
Excellent report Lawrence.  I was particularly amused by the photo of Graham tucking into his black pudding.   ;)

As far as using the Greeks in "a proper competition" goes, what are your thoughts - Challenge in April?

Tim Child

LawrenceG

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2009, 11:44:02 PM »
Excellent report Lawrence.  I was particularly amused by the photo of Graham tucking into his black pudding.   ;)

As far as using the Greeks in "a proper competition" goes, what are your thoughts - Challenge in April?

Tim Child

I've got other commitments which clash with that so my next opportunity would be the IWF Worlds in May if the DBMM runs, but I'll probably take Late Romans to that as they fit in a smaller box, more convenient for air travel. BRITCON is looking good at the moment. I want to squeeze in another outing for the Scots Irish sometime as well. They were a lot of fun and I have a new, improved list after the Munster experience.

MikeEgglestone

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2009, 06:54:26 PM »
I?m impressed ? I must be the ?Ying? in Lawrences ?Yang? and the counterbalance to his good generalship with my idiotic. Just how do you manage to control three separate commands of Irregular Spears ? my Athenians just career off ? advancing against anything in front of them (including nothing!) Or, I have to spend two pips to hold the over excited hoplites so don?t have enough pips to spend elsewhere. Of course, having my C in C with one group helps, but nothing seems to persuade the other commands to behave. C?mon Lawrence let me in on your secret ? no one else will be reading this thread. ;)

That said they do seem to perform decently enough against many troop types and they do have some staying power ? especially if deployed three ranks deep. However, they have to work hard to win and in my experience do need a fair bit of luck to win a prolonged fight against those infantry that quick kill them ? massed Warband (hope for the best), Blades (aint too bad) but I did have a nasty experience against Superior Auxilia in open and good going ? what?s all that about! But what I really, really hate are bleedin Superior Knights ? especially Cataphracts (mainly because both my friends field armies with them in). I just can?t kill the brutes. >:(

Regards

Mike

LawrenceG

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2009, 07:42:38 PM »
The CinC can always hold one group.

The regular sub with the high dice can nearly always hold them and still has a free pip to use on his regular troops.

The sub with the low dice might have a problem (and did in my first game) but if possible can be deployed where the spears will want to go forward anyway. The regular sub still has a free pip to move his regulars.

Against Ax(S) it pays to get the first hit because then you are 4-2 even with no overlaps. On average you'll wipe out about a third of the enemy front rank for no loss. Then you lose about half your front rank. If you have enough depth you can knock out another third of the enemy front rank.   It's better just to move your mounted through the spearmen to engage Ax(S) in the open.

For fighting blades, Ax(S), warband or spears, spears are the worst value for points.

For fighting bows or other Ax, spears are probably second to warband.

Against mounted they are the same as blades IIRC and better than Ax(S) or warband.

Tim Child

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2009, 11:36:33 PM »
FWIW, I think that Irr Sp(O) may actually be slightly better than Wb for fighting Bw, as I find that they suffer very few casualties on the way in, unlike Wb who can get shot to bits (poor Geoff's Wb vs Stuart's Bw(X) at Ladywood last weekend was a classic case in point)!  Don't be scared to let them move impetuously across the killing ground and to press forward even if they get some way ahead of their pals, as they'll line up once they're in contact with the enemy.

Wb(S) may be better (particularly against Bw(S)), but against almost anything else Wb(S) are a complete liability because their high ME (compared to other Wb) means that the losses quickly tip their command over the edge.   :'(

Tim Child

LawrenceG

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2009, 08:27:46 AM »
I'll believe you. I wasn't sure how the greater losses on the way in would counterbalance the killing 2 at a time in close combat. Also I was thinking about Irr Sp(O), not Reg Sp who need pips to get forward against all the shooting. It may turn out that deep warband is better against deep bow, but shallow spear is better against shallow bow.

Tim Child

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 11:17:51 PM »
All IMO, of course, but for example against Bw(S) (which are so expensive that you only tend to see them 2-deep), AP for AP I'd pick the Irr Sp(O) over the Wb.

Against really deep formations (and it'll be rare that you see even Irr Bw(I) more than 4-deep, other than if you are lucky enough to catch your opponent in column of march), Wb might be better because of the speed of result.  Wb might also be better against Bw(I), because at those dice-factors the (I) really kicks in a lot (3:2(I) is really difficult for the Bw(I) to survive, whereas at 3:2(O) the Bw "only" has to outroll the Wb).

In HtH, Bw vs Sp is one of those odd fights (like Sp vs Bd) where you actually tend to kill your opponent more on his bound than on yours.   ::)  Get in there, and stay in there is the tactic. 

Wb will almost certainly get you a quicker result, one way or the other.  Sp is probably a "safer bet", but depending upon the situation you might not always break the Bw before the game ends.  Kevin Peterson, or Shivnarine Chanderpaul, the choice is yours...

Tim

MikeEgglestone

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 09:24:01 AM »
I agree with getting in quickly against bows - I guess the Greeks at Marathon knew exactly what they were doing. Its what I normally try and do against my friends Palymrans/Feudal English - try to totally ignore the Cataphracts/Knights but target everything else. In fact its often the best plan, as letting other foot come onto you and taking the quick kill from Blade/Warband/Auxilia(superior) is not a good idea. Unlike Lawrence I normally field the army with 2 Irreg Sp(o) Generals and 1 Reg Cav(o) so control is a problem as is getting the drop on opponents. In historical match ups we have played against Spartans they virtually always get the drop on me - standing two ranks deep Sp(s)/Sp(o) - as I wander up, stop within 160paces only to get clobbered by the Spartans in their bound. They know if the waiting game is played my lack of control/maneuverability is my weakness. Still, its only a game. ;D

LawrenceG

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2009, 02:16:04 PM »
Quote
In historical match ups we have played against Spartans they virtually always get the drop on me - standing two ranks deep Sp(s)/Sp(o) - as I wander up, stop within 160paces only to get clobbered by the Spartans in their bound. They know if the waiting game is played my lack of control/maneuverability is my weakness.

Put a rank of Ps on the front of the Sp group.

If he charges, the psiloi are only spent and you get first hit with the spears. If he waits, your spear charge spontaneously through them into contact. If he waits at less than 80p, then you have a problem, but with 2 pips you can pull the psiloi back and let the spear go sponno.

Barritus

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2009, 02:43:08 PM »
I'm impressed - I must be the 'Ying' in Lawrences 'Yang' and the counterbalance to his good generalship with my idiotic. Just how do you manage to control three separate commands of Irregular Spears - my Athenians just career off - advancing against anything in front of them (including nothing!) Or, I have to spend two pips to hold the over excited hoplites so don't have enough pips to spend elsewhere. Of course, having my C in C with one group helps, but nothing seems to persuade the other commands to behave. C'mon Lawrence let me in on your secret - no one else will be reading this thread. ;)

Well, as Lawrence pointed out, it helps having two regular sub-generals. Alternatively, you could take the Nicias option - an Inert C-in-C not only stops your lads from being impetuous, it also allows you to purchase a heap more hoplites!

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That said they do seem to perform decently enough against many troop types and they do have some staying power - especially if deployed three ranks deep.

Yes, I'd rarely consider using Sp in less than three ranks. I deploy the Irr Sp (I) in my Sub-Roman British army in three ranks, unless I really have to spread them out. And if you read the account of my battle with Hellenistic Greek Aitolians (DBM version of the list) against a Burgundian Ordonnance army, you'll read of the time my Irr Sp (O) hoplites took on Reg Kn (O) dismounted as Reg Bd (S), a fight I was going to win.

Quote
However, they have to work hard to win and in my experience do need a fair bit of luck to win a prolonged fight against those infantry that quick kill them - massed Warband (hope for the best)...

First thing I'd do is not line the hoplites up against the warband in the first place. If, for example, I had a hoplite army facing, say, Galatian, I'd really think about every trick I could use to keep the hoplites away from the warband - double flank marches, sitting behind bad terrain, screening with Ps, et cetera. You're not under any obligation to just line up and hope the dice favour you.

Quote
...Blades (aint too bad)...

See above.

Quote
...but I did have a nasty experience against Superior Auxilia in open and good going - what's all that about!

My guess is the quick-kill is to give Reg Ax (S) Samnites the necessary edge over their Italian Sp opponents.

Quote
But what I really, really hate are bleedin Superior Knights - especially Cataphracts (mainly because both my friends field armies with them in). I just can't kill the brutes. >:(

Yes, I had a bad experience with my Aitolians against a Serbian Empire army at MOAB last October. The only suggestion I have is the same as for the Galatians - don't fight fair. Something else to consider is terrain - place as much of it as you can, swarm Ps through it, and let the hoplites hold the gaps. IF the Kn go for the hoplites, they risk being hit in the flanks. Alternatively, why not try the Phokian version of the list with the artillery and mercenary hoplites? Put the artillery in ambush and you might upset a Kn opponent!

The other thing to consider is to look at the list and the stratagems. Would Ambushes help? What about Exaggerating Numbers? Feigned Flight? Perhaps you could take Iphicrates as your Brilliant C-in-C, and put him in command of a bunch of Pk (F) peltasts, while the Reg Cv (O) subs command the hoplites.

MikeEgglestone

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Re: Broken Spears at Ladywood
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 07:41:43 PM »
Thanks for the tips even better when none of my regular opponents are members of the forum  ;D. Hadn't considered fronting my hoplites with the psiloi in order to get first hit. Thats one plan I will certainly try.

Cheers - Mike