How to measure movement for individual elements.

[MikeCampbell]

I agree in the main with Mike's point 1 and 2 (except I would also add terrain etc as other things to measure around) but I have no problem whatsoever with measuring around a TZ - purely my opinion, nothing more.  This is backed up by one of the diagrams where a Cav element manoeuvres outside of the TZ.

Manouvring outside the TZ is not the same as measuring around it tho - I also have no problems with manouvreing outside - but Phil has repeatedly said that you cannot measure around it - ie you cannot measure so as to avoid it.

[andrew]

Have you got a link Mike?  And the difference between moving and manoeuvring outside a TZ is....?

[MikeCampbell]

It's not measuring outside that's prohibited - it's measuring AROUND - ie changing a path so that you avoid the zone altogether.

In the cases shown in the rule diagrams - the elements still pass through the TZ - they do not avoid it - therefore such manouvring is legal.

see http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/60111

or http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/88714

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/88687

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/87187

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/87186

[andrew]

Thanks for the links Mike.  The 1st and 4th links make it quite clear the author's intention is you cannot dog leg around a TZ.  This is of course on the proviso that there is not something else there that must be avoided.  And on the proviso that there aren't other links or discussions from the author which state the opposite.  Interestingly, the last link tells you how to do this legally: by first inter-posing an element.

However, it does seem at odds with the Cav diagram.  If we measure the positions of the initial and final corners then it appears the Cav wheeled through the TZ of the element initially to the front, and such a move is not permitted.  A fine line I'm sure but I think this diagram doesn't help the debate at all given Phil has stated the TZ is an artificial construct that cannot be seen - in which case how did the Cav know to first move backwards, wheel and then forwards?  I view such manoeuvring as no different to dog-legging and either all such manoeuvres should be allowed or disallowed so there is no confusion whatsoever.

Cheers
Andrew

[foxgom]

Hi

The links were very illuminating, though not perhaps in that they made the rules clear.

It seems to me that there is deviance between what was intended and what was written in the rules.
Dog legging around a TZ seems to be illegal by intention, but it is not forbidden in the rules.

Phil seems very keen on allowing elements to get into combat...
Perhaps it makes a difference if you dog leg around one elements TZ so as to contact another element, as in Robs example with the Blades ?   

I would agree with Tim and, if asked as an umpire, rule that doglegging around TZs is legal.
I would not have a problem if it became illegal in DBMM 1.1 but would also not have a problem if it became explicitly legal.   

Richard:
I will not be in Lisbon, we have a big birthday in the family at that time and I would have a bad (enviromental) conscience flying all that way just to play tin soldiers anyway.  If the event moves towards more central Europe I will try to get there.  If you visit Karlsruhe again, drop me a line and we should be able to organise a game. I have a cellar full of figures and a spare room.

neil