Why are orchards/olive groves so tiny?

[landmeister]

I've always found that 1/2 FE are simply useless. No one plays with features that cannot exceed 240p long! The question is, why must orchards and olive grounds be so ridiculously tiny? Thay cannot be used as a really useful feature. 

[Valentinian Victor]

I always use orchards and vineyards if I can use ambushers. 1/2 FE size means that an attacker can lay down 4 pieces of terrain rather than the normal 2 bits, and the more terrain you lay for some armies the better i.e. a foot heavy army vs a mostly mounted one.
As a defender the situation is even better as you can literally swamp the table in terrain favourable to you and hopefully not to your opponent.

[andrew]

I too don't find the size to be a major issue.  Is there any reason you want these types of difficult going to be especially large?  If you really want large pieces of DGo on the table, often the best bet is a Marsh.  Sometimes you can get a marsh onto the table even if it isn't in the defenders list.  It also goes down very early in the sequence of terrain placement which means you have a greater chance of getting it down.  The downside is that only Psiloi can ambush from/in a marsh.....but you are right in the sense that terrain is very important in DBMM.  Hence I don't mind using a low aggression army which gives me more control over the terrain, more pieces to place and the first move.

Andrew

[DaveMather]

I very often use them

I will pick 2 (but thats coz its slightly cheesy -its an easy way to burn 1/2 FE and I have some nice plum trees and some tree-mendous  home made orange trees and olive trees - as Toby will testify 

Being further down the terrain table they tend to go towards the centre making them excellent for small ambushes - (even in 25mm) you can get some scythed chariots in them

as to why that size have a look back around the below (at one point they were linked to fields)

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMMlist/message/36953

Kind Regards


David Mather

[toby]

They are large enough to hold a small ambush. Even though they come quite late in the placing order, they still prevent later terrain from going down if they occupy space. And they are easier to fit in late in the order because they are smaller.

[william]

  As the defender I like to have some 1/2 fe features, then again I do clutter up the table.

I always use orchards and vineyards if I can use ambushers. 1/2 FE size means that an attacker can lay down 4 pieces of terrain rather than the normal 2 bits, and the more terrain you lay for some armies the better i.e. a foot heavy army vs a mostly mounted one.
As a defender the situation is even better as you can literally swamp the table in terrain favourable to you and hopefully not to your opponent.

But I think that you can only have 3 1/2 FEs, this I think means that as an invader the total number of area featufes you can place is three ( for maximum cover 2x1/2 FEs and 1 FE ).

I did wonder at the size of Orchards and Olive groves, indeed how one would put down any that were compulsory ( in old dbm books ) but in thats the rules and as the new army books are written I think that a lot of these compulsories are being removed. I do feel where these terrian types were used ( Greece etc.) it is possible that other terrian resticted the size. As they also are placed later in sequence there is more chance of fitting them in.

The question about them I would ask is why is one restricted to having only 1 1/2 FE of either orchard or olive groves, yes I do think 1 oasis is reasonable but the other 2?

The next would be if Orchards and Olive groves can be only 1/2 FE size why can one take 2 FE of an Oasis ?

And lastly ( as I live in the land of scholars ), why are boggy flats only 1/2 FEs, you should see the sizes of boogy flats ( not boggy enough to be marsh ) around here.

William ( upto my ankles in it )

[landmeister]

They are large enough to hold a small ambush. Even though they come quite late in the placing order, they still prevent later terrain from going down if they occupy space. And they are easier to fit in late in the order because they are smaller.

Sorry, maybe I'm wrong, but from your words it seems that more than 1 element can be hidden. A surface 480p square means that it is a rectangle less than 40p x 40 p = 1600p. No element can be hidden within such a rectangle! 

[toby]

Ah, I suddenly see the problem. 480p square is 480 paces by 480 paces. You are thinking of 480p squared, which would be tiny. One letter - critical difference in English.

[DaveMather]

As the defender I like to have some 1/2 fe features, then again I do clutter up the table.

I always use orchards and vineyards if I can use ambushers. 1/2 FE size means that an attacker can lay down 4 pieces of terrain rather than the normal 2 bits, and the more terrain you lay for some armies the better i.e. a foot heavy army vs a mostly mounted one.
As a defender the situation is even better as you can literally swamp the table in terrain favourable to you and hopefully not to your opponent.

But I think that you can only have 3 1/2 FEs, this I think means that as an invader the total number of area featufes you can place is three ( for maximum cover 2x1/2 FEs and 1 FE ).

William I will oft pick 2 x 1FE GH and 2 x 1/2 FE orchard or olive as an invader - i suspect Adrian is talking about something similar (cost and size)

Kind Regards


David Mather

[Valentinian Victor]

As the defender I like to have some 1/2 fe features, then again I do clutter up the table.

I always use orchards and vineyards if I can use ambushers. 1/2 FE size means that an attacker can lay down 4 pieces of terrain rather than the normal 2 bits, and the more terrain you lay for some armies the better i.e. a foot heavy army vs a mostly mounted one.
As a defender the situation is even better as you can literally swamp the table in terrain favourable to you and hopefully not to your opponent.

But I think that you can only have 3 1/2 FEs, this I think means that as an invader the total number of area featufes you can place is three ( for maximum cover 2x1/2 FEs and 1 FE ).

William I will oft pick 2 x 1FE GH and 2 x 1/2 FE orchard or olive as an invader - i suspect Adrian is talking about something similar (cost and size)

Kind Regards


David Mather

Indeed I was and we must not forget the bonus of being able to lay rectangular shaped terrain...

[landmeister]

Ah, I suddenly see the problem. 480p square is 480 paces by 480 paces. You are thinking of 480p squared, which would be tiny. One letter - critical difference in English.

Ooops. Sorry. I think it is now clear that English is not my first language! 

Thank you very much.

[william]

As the defender I like to have some 1/2 fe features, then again I do clutter up the table.

I always use orchards and vineyards if I can use ambushers. 1/2 FE size means that an attacker can lay down 4 pieces of terrain rather than the normal 2 bits, and the more terrain you lay for some armies the better i.e. a foot heavy army vs a mostly mounted one.
As a defender the situation is even better as you can literally swamp the table in terrain favourable to you and hopefully not to your opponent.

But I think that you can only have 3 1/2 FEs, this I think means that as an invader the total number of area featufes you can place is three ( for maximum cover 2x1/2 FEs and 1 FE ).

William I will oft pick 2 x 1FE GH and 2 x 1/2 FE orchard or olive as an invader - i suspect Adrian is talking about something similar (cost and size)

Kind Regards


David Mather

  Hello Dave,

I think ( and could be wrong ) that one can only place 3 1/2's FE, it also seems that one can only place 1 1/2 FE of Orchard, Olive Grove or any size Oasis.

In placing 2 x 1 FE of gentle hills and 2 X 1/2 FE of orchards one is placing 4 X 1/2 FEs ( when one can only place a maximum of 3 ) and there is 1 to many orchards or olive groves.

Any way and further to the point why are you not placing as much marsh as possible to flee the cavalry/light horse into .  or are you ambushing your expendables ?

Of course there was always the issue whether both players can place an orchard, olive grove or oasis, ( I think it was decided both can )

William

[DaveMather]

[/quote]

  Hello Dave,

I think ( and could be wrong ) that one can only place 3 1/2's FE, it also seems that one can only place 1 1/2 FE of Orchard, Olive Grove or any size Oasis.

Sort of right sort of wrong  - the important thing is to differentiate between when the rules are referring to cost and when to size

You cannot choose more than 3 1/2 FE sized features (emphasis on choose and size)

In my example as invader i had 2 x 1FE GH and 2 x 1/2 O

I have only chosen 2 1/2 sized features (the Orchards and/or Olive Groves )

I have chosen 2 1FE sized features that COST 1/2 FE each  (shouting for emphasis so apologies ) which are the 1FE GHs

I have thus CHOSEN 2 1 FE SIZED pieces and 2 1/2 SIZED pieces that COST 4 x 1/2 =2 FE

That covers that bit

GHs etc go down we now come to the orchards - I have 2

roll for the first it can be placed so it is - second is discarded as only 1 can be placed

if you fail to place the first you can then try and place the second

If both of us have Orchards then defender gets first bite at the cherry (its a cherry orchard  ) if that goes down invaders are discarded

You cannot place more than 1 dont believe anything stops you chosing 2
In placing 2 x 1 FE of gentle hills and 2 X 1/2 FE of orchards one is placing 4 X 1/2 FEs ( when one can only place a maximum of 3 ) and there is 1 to many orchards or olive groves.

Any way and further to the point why are you not placing as much marsh as possible to flee the cavalry/light horse into .  or are you ambushing your expendables ?

I used expendables a while back with the Pontics (25mm at Campaign) - i dropped the unusual troops stratagem in favour of ambush - depending on your aggression unusual troops may be 10Ap wasted - the lower the aggression the better it is - with ambush you can get the expendables out onto the wings - angle the terrain piece towards the centre and let it rip 

The GHs oft go on the flanks with the O more likely to be off centre -even in 25mm you can still get a couple of scythed chariots safgley tucked up in the orchard - and dont forget Elephants (even expendables) love cherry trees to hide in ;-)

Whilst on the subject of elephant expendables - what speed do they go through SF ?
Of course there was always the issue whether both players can place an orchard, olive grove or oasis, ( I think it was decided both can )

I think they both can pick them but only one gets placed


William
[/quote]

[DaveMather]

Eeek that format came out all wrong

[Barritus]

I very often use them...excellent for small ambushes - (even in 25mm) you can get some scythed chariots in them...

Do you think the terrain feature should be removed after the scythed chariots leave, because the scythes have cut the plants down? ;-)

Or would that only be with an ambush of scythed chariots out of a vineyard? :-)